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citrus_javaI keep hearing that SPN is getting old, as if the characters are mostly as explored as they can get, no more stories to tell. I think that's very far from true, it's more about the writers losing attention and willingness to change, as well as forgetting way too much about the show's past.
One thing I miss about SPN canon, as well as most of the fic I've come across lately, is a strong desire. For anything. Nobody on the show seems hungry anymore, or rather, if they're hungry they're resigned or just quiet about it (even poor Cas).
Even most of the fic I've read lately didn't have that hunger (maybe it was just a coincident) - for love, for sex, for being OK, for safely, for not being left, etc. It was about other things, some of them interesting, like pain, foreboding, creepiness, gloominess, depression, tentative fun - but not so much hunger or desire.
I thought perhaps it was about missing first-time fic, but established relationship can be just as dramatic and interesting if not more. I imagine, no idea if it's true, that SPN has that much established relationship fic partial because at some point the utter wonder and newness that makes a lot of first-times work, was repeated so many times it lost its magic for a while, and established relationship fics became more interesting. Though I love that fandom has both these days, as well as other options.
Anyway - The most dramatic thing Dean needed this season, to save Sam's life - looks like he pretty much knew he would be able to, and that even if he failed, it'll be ok in some way. And going through almost losing Cas, and Cas being OK, right after what happened with Sam, and again right away with Charlie, empties it all of real fear, desperation, real hunger.
The thing is, it's cool that Dean lives in his reality, and doesn't keep believing it's a completely new thing every time. But wouldn't he, then, feel other things instead? Yeah, now he has money (we assume), a place to live, Sam probably wanting to stay, and more assurance than other people have that his loved ones and he himself will probably be ok(though IDK why Zeke wouldn't let Dean himself die, who knows) . But when people get what they want, it often influences them... Wanting to protect that new shiny thing (which may be where Dean is, but we hardly get to see it), missing even bad things from the past, now that they're gone - something. The writers hitting Dean exactly the same way as he dealt with so many times alread, seemingly with the half-expectation that it'll work as if it's new, may be the writers not living in the reality of the show.
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion. Sometimes it has to do with the one last thing a person will get emotional over before they collapse. Sometimes it has to do with subtlety, maturity, a less dramatic way of looking at things and feelings, even though they may still matter to the person just as much. Or finding out you don't actually want things you'd been pining over for so long, or fighting for (like in Amanda Palmer's In My Mind). Or finding out that you've made peace, or that wonder of wonders - real wonder - you're capable of still wanting something new after all of that time (Like in the beautiful Paladin of Souls). Or capable of being new, yourself.
It can be about actually going through mourning some of the things that have been done to you, or you've done to yourself or others. The Winchesters were so often faced with disaster after disaster, without really getting time to deal with it (except for a few rare situations), it could be interesting if suddenly they started having feelings about things they just now has the time and safety to deal with.
Even "smaller" tragedies, like Dean feeling sorrow for not being what Jo wanted from him before she died, or anger at Crowley for getting her killed, or being shaken from Baby being flipped and crashing, with hm inside her, or seemingly irrational anger at Sam for beating him up while he was possessed, so many other things. Mourning things that happened to him as a kid, he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things.
And the way dealing with that would make him act, would change the way he acts with Sam and Cas, and Kevin. He might start going out and sleeping with waitresses again, might take up some odd hobby he never allowed himself to try, might become more vulnerable over small things, yell more, less with his "everything's good" attitude - I don't know. But I'd like to see.
Or it can be about living with a disability, or with scars. Like, for Sam - when the world *isn't* really falling apart and you're *not* going through the trials expecting to die soon, you suddenly have to deal. Now is probably the first time Sam's had where he wasn't completely stricken with grief or fighting something huge, since the first episode - or perhaps since before Stanford, in a way. Sam had said some fascinating things, to me, about living with mental issues, hallucinations - I want to hear more. And see some of the less photogenic, more everyday aspects of it. (like not decorating - clearly that was about fear, perhaps it was anxiety he was hiding from Dean)
But it doesn't have be about living with disability.I'd love more development for Sam in general, there's so much inside that boy that so rarely gets expressed, and Jared could make it beautiful and interesting of he got enough of it, too. Sam has a lot to deal with. He was raped, probably repeatedly, he lost all his loved ones, and was left utterly alone and with no one who could even understand, a short while ago. He was raised into a dark, scary world, forced to stay, tried to run away & failed twice. Even his anger issues - very justifiable anger - haven't necessarily been resolved. And more and more...
Perhaps his feelings of being damaged and impure extend beyond demon blood, perhaps it's also about his guilt, helplessness, internalized self loathing, feeling he doesn't measure up, things like handling being tortured/raped - whatever he may still be going through. There is something there, judging by those held back, sad little faces he makes, even when he's good. And along with that, as he said, he does see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it sounded like (I really hope!) he wants to reach that light and have a life with Dean.
Though I believe a lot of it is about feeling he isn't good enough in Dean's eyes.
So, now that he *isn't* in any huge danger he is aware of, perhaps it'd be harder for him, cause he'd need to deal. Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point. Perhaps now, dealing with things like staying - moving in, too - is difficult in a whole different way. And perhaps if he's aware of that - which he is likely to become, being pretty sensitive about that sort of stuff perhaps he'd even think he's forcing his suspicions towards Dean, just to have something distracting to worry about.
One thing I miss about SPN canon, as well as most of the fic I've come across lately, is a strong desire. For anything. Nobody on the show seems hungry anymore, or rather, if they're hungry they're resigned or just quiet about it (even poor Cas).
Even most of the fic I've read lately didn't have that hunger (maybe it was just a coincident) - for love, for sex, for being OK, for safely, for not being left, etc. It was about other things, some of them interesting, like pain, foreboding, creepiness, gloominess, depression, tentative fun - but not so much hunger or desire.
I thought perhaps it was about missing first-time fic, but established relationship can be just as dramatic and interesting if not more. I imagine, no idea if it's true, that SPN has that much established relationship fic partial because at some point the utter wonder and newness that makes a lot of first-times work, was repeated so many times it lost its magic for a while, and established relationship fics became more interesting. Though I love that fandom has both these days, as well as other options.
Anyway - The most dramatic thing Dean needed this season, to save Sam's life - looks like he pretty much knew he would be able to, and that even if he failed, it'll be ok in some way. And going through almost losing Cas, and Cas being OK, right after what happened with Sam, and again right away with Charlie, empties it all of real fear, desperation, real hunger.
The thing is, it's cool that Dean lives in his reality, and doesn't keep believing it's a completely new thing every time. But wouldn't he, then, feel other things instead? Yeah, now he has money (we assume), a place to live, Sam probably wanting to stay, and more assurance than other people have that his loved ones and he himself will probably be ok
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion. Sometimes it has to do with the one last thing a person will get emotional over before they collapse. Sometimes it has to do with subtlety, maturity, a less dramatic way of looking at things and feelings, even though they may still matter to the person just as much. Or finding out you don't actually want things you'd been pining over for so long, or fighting for (like in Amanda Palmer's In My Mind). Or finding out that you've made peace, or that wonder of wonders - real wonder - you're capable of still wanting something new after all of that time (Like in the beautiful Paladin of Souls). Or capable of being new, yourself.
It can be about actually going through mourning some of the things that have been done to you, or you've done to yourself or others. The Winchesters were so often faced with disaster after disaster, without really getting time to deal with it (except for a few rare situations), it could be interesting if suddenly they started having feelings about things they just now has the time and safety to deal with.
Even "smaller" tragedies, like Dean feeling sorrow for not being what Jo wanted from him before she died, or anger at Crowley for getting her killed, or being shaken from Baby being flipped and crashing, with hm inside her, or seemingly irrational anger at Sam for beating him up while he was possessed, so many other things. Mourning things that happened to him as a kid, he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things.
And the way dealing with that would make him act, would change the way he acts with Sam and Cas, and Kevin. He might start going out and sleeping with waitresses again, might take up some odd hobby he never allowed himself to try, might become more vulnerable over small things, yell more, less with his "everything's good" attitude - I don't know. But I'd like to see.
Or it can be about living with a disability, or with scars. Like, for Sam - when the world *isn't* really falling apart and you're *not* going through the trials expecting to die soon, you suddenly have to deal. Now is probably the first time Sam's had where he wasn't completely stricken with grief or fighting something huge, since the first episode - or perhaps since before Stanford, in a way. Sam had said some fascinating things, to me, about living with mental issues, hallucinations - I want to hear more. And see some of the less photogenic, more everyday aspects of it. (like not decorating - clearly that was about fear, perhaps it was anxiety he was hiding from Dean)
But it doesn't have be about living with disability.
Perhaps his feelings of being damaged and impure extend beyond demon blood, perhaps it's also about his guilt, helplessness, internalized self loathing, feeling he doesn't measure up, things like handling being tortured/raped - whatever he may still be going through. There is something there, judging by those held back, sad little faces he makes, even when he's good. And along with that, as he said, he does see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it sounded like (I really hope!) he wants to reach that light and have a life with Dean.
Though I believe a lot of it is about feeling he isn't good enough in Dean's eyes.
So, now that he *isn't* in any huge danger he is aware of, perhaps it'd be harder for him, cause he'd need to deal. Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point. Perhaps now, dealing with things like staying - moving in, too - is difficult in a whole different way. And perhaps if he's aware of that - which he is likely to become, being pretty sensitive about that sort of stuff perhaps he'd even think he's forcing his suspicions towards Dean, just to have something distracting to worry about.
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Date: 2013-11-08 11:29 pm (UTC)It's so true that there are plenty of beautiful stories to be told in healing, in subtler experiences and feelings, in growing and getting better. It seems like the writers think that wouldn't make "good tv," but since the fans are so much more invested in the characters than in shock value, I disagree with that sentiment. Once upon a time, a sharp comment from John about "touching up his car" was cause for a lot of feeling/interesting character development and interactions, whereas now, another apocalypse barely fazes them. I so wish they would get back in touch with these characters' humanity.
You bring up an interesting point about both the writers and the characters not really *feeling* what's happening to them, which as you say, causes it to lose all meaning. This is certainly not a problem they had in the earlier seasons--rather, reacting what's happened to them is what drove the plot and the characters back then. Sometimes I get the feeling the writers feel like SPN is a ship so big it's out of their control, which ain't good--they need to hire writers and/or a showrunner who can handle something as massive, with as passionate a fanbase, as this show.
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Date: 2013-11-09 08:21 am (UTC)How so? Because it's a mass of similar feelings, which can be problematic for writing? O r because it gets in the way of strongly feeling about other things, without being addressed? Or that it makes things less believable? Or something else?
It seems like the writers think that wouldn't make "good tv," but since the fans are so much more invested in the characters than in shock value, I disagree with that sentiment. Once upon a time, a sharp comment from John about "touching up his car" was cause for a lot of feeling/interesting character development and interactions, whereas now, another apocalypse barely fazes them.
Yes, yes, YES!
If Jensen's eyelashes didn't make me want to watch the show, "shock value" sure isn't likely to. Give me small hints about those beautifully complex characters, with a good story underneath!
As for the touch up - I missed that discussion, sadly. It was such an indicative thing to say, Dean kept the Impala *perfect*, and that still wasn't good enough for John. Sounds like it would be interesting for the 'Sam is the Impala' path I've heard about and haven't gotten into.
I so wish they would get back in touch with these characters' humanity
I suspect that's what Cas and Kevin are there to replace. Which makes me wanna kick some ass, and not because I have a problem with Cas or Kevin.
Sometimes I get the feeling the writers feel like SPN is a ship so big it's out of their control, which ain't good--they need to hire writers and/or a showrunner who can handle something as massive, with as passionate a fanbase, as this show.
YES. It so often like they're intimidated, wanting to please, but not listening, just wanting to not fuck it up, cause it's working and they don't want the blame for bringing it down. Like they know it's "only" gonna be another season and a half, perhaps, and "Let's just pass the time with small talk". When in the past they thouht every season was the last and wanted to make the very best of it. And they know there are plenty of fans who will be mean - and they're even mean when the writers do nothing interesting at all! Imagine what'd happen if they did something big! So we get bland, repetitive things, as if repeating something will have the same effect the second or fifteenth time. And we get "Oh, you want shipping moments? Here, have them!" (not that I'm complaining about those!) - but those are less effective for being less set in an emotional story arc. And the writers just don't listen to the right things, perhaps - the fans have been vocal for so many years about the amulet and Dean's phone message - if you want to please the fans, try listening to the fans better... Also, mostly, I'd like to get the writers to actually watch the entire show. Just sit down, you can do it together and we'll all spring for beer, OK? Just watch the thing from the beginning now, please.
Guh, the situation makes me Dommy. I wanna coach that team. I really wish they'd get someone who does that. They *should* get people from fandom to do that - even just fix scripts - we have amazing writers who know the show better than the current writers for sure - but even just - let Robby be show runner, please.
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Date: 2013-11-09 10:46 am (UTC)I have the same feelings. Especially during S8, I found myself empathizing with Kevin a lot more than Sam or Dean. Which really shouldn't be happening in a show with two leads. With human!Cas, I don't really feel connected to him though (for a number of reasons which I don't really want to get to here).
I miss the days when Sam and Dean would try their damnedest to exorcise demons instead of going trigger-(or knife)-happy on all of them. You get the occasional episode where the writers seem to remember that the boys had some empathy for humans, even if they were possessed/done some shitty things. But other times they have them mowing down a warehouse full of demons without so much as a blink.
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Date: 2013-11-09 01:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-12 08:36 am (UTC)I'll admit, I have a HUGE thing for dark!Winchesters, and especially so in recent seasons because of episodes like "Slash Fiction", and just the fact that the Winchesters are so messed up now. I would find the show a LOT more interesting if it was taking us down Sam & Dean's journey towards psychopathy. But that's probably something best explored in fic LOL.
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Date: 2013-11-13 04:04 am (UTC)the weight of all the baggage they're carrying around is beginning to get in the way of furthering the story/character growth instead of helping it along.
How so? Because it's a mass of similar feelings, which can be problematic for writing? O r because it gets in the way of strongly feeling about other things, without being addressed? Or that it makes things less believable? Or something else?
I was thinking of what you said about how Sam and Dean have never had the chance to deal with all that's happened to them. Because real people who've been through everything they've been through realistically couldn't function nearly as well as Sam and Dean still do, it hinders creating a believable emotional reality between the boys in their relationship (upon which the WHOLE SHOW used to be based!). With all the water that's under the bridge between Sam and Dean that has never been meaningfully addressed or resolved, as fans it's sometimes hard to guess which of countless things they're mad at each other about now. If real people went through so much unresolved crap with another person, all the betrayals and perceived betrayals and misunderstandings, the relationship would simply break down. At best, I feel like they might work together but hardly speak and certainly never try to talk about any of the real issues in their relationship (since it never does any good anyway).
S1 managed to concoct a great deal of genuine emotional drama out of a couple of longstanding issues, and now the list is at least fifty items long and counting. Plus, they DID talk stuff out way back when! I can't remember the last time they did that, except in the church in "Sacrifice," but the conclusion was the only one they ever seem to come to these days: "I'm your brother, I love you, and that's all that matters," which helps but doesn't resolve the greater problems Sam brought up in the church. If as in S1 a few real issues are sufficient to drive the narrative of an entire season, I feel like the writers and the audience would be far better off if the writers allowed Sam and Dean to work out some of their old issues so they could get into new ones, instead of the brothers' entire relationship being so bogged down in too much baggage
On the plus side, they're trying out a few new writers this season. Maybe some fresh blood will help ...? We can hope.
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Date: 2013-11-21 11:14 am (UTC)Yeah...
I don't believe the relationship would necessarily break down, but even just the early "Dean being tortured for 40 years" - ... how is he not... how is he... at all functioning? Ever? Perhaps angel heal more than the physical to some extent, that could explain most of it...
S1 managed to concoct a great deal of genuine emotional drama out of a couple of longstanding issues, and now the list is at least fifty items long and counting.
That's reather believable to me... and even more since both of them are so invested in putting their needs aside in order to please the other.
But I agree that writing-wise, it's a huge mass of unresolved things, and ignoring them sucks and also is less interesting and emotionally satisfying to me.
Plus, they DID talk stuff out way back when!
Yeah... and I agree that "I'm your brother" is not enough...
I feel like the writers and the audience would be far better off if the writers allowed Sam and Dean to work out some of their old issues so they could get into new ones
I very much agree.
On the plus side, they're trying out a few new writers this season. Maybe some fresh blood will help ...? We can hope.
I do hope! That Cas ep wasn't bad, though Dean was kinda - WTF.
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Date: 2013-11-09 12:59 am (UTC)In terms of *feeling* what's happening to the characters, I think the single biggest mistake the show ever made was devaluing death. I'm okay with the deaths of Sam and Dean at the end of S2 and S3 because the resurrections came with huge consequences. But that should have been it. No one else should ever have come back. We've seen so many resurrections now that death is a revolving door. And as much as I love "Dark Side of the Moon"--it would be on my list of all time favorite episodes--it set a bad precedent. Sam and Dean know they're going to Heaven when they die. Not in the way religious people know there's something better on the other side because they have faith, but in the way I know there's a grocery store on the corner because I've been there. That makes Sam and Dean different from every real human being who's ever lived. Death can't possibly be as dire for them as it is for us because they know for a fact they'll meet again. It makes them a little less human, and it makes the threat of death on the show less powerful to the viewer.
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Date: 2013-11-09 09:15 am (UTC)Wow, really? I wouldn't trust the current writers to go for it, but I can imagine it being dealt with - even by the season 7 staff. Not as deeply and subtly as I'd have liked, but they sure dealt with Sam's insanity better than I guess most shows would have. I know I keep saying that to you, but of course they wouldn't write it as well as you would have, but I can see them writing it well. And Kripke... I don't get exactly how he/his team worked. I don't find Revolution nearly as interesting as hi SPN - and that may have to do with me needing time to find out what's awesome about the show, or the show needing time to find out what's awesome about it, or it just being about things I find less interesting, or Kripke being bad at writing (sure was on SPN, sorry) IDK, so many other possible things. B ut I wonder - he did say that in SPN he would imagine creative plots, and Singer would make him refocus on character development and emotions. Perhaps Singer is missing from Revolution?
Certainly too complicated for the stable of writers they've got now.
Honestly, though I'd like them to very much fire some of the writers, fast, I suspect a really good show runner could have made it work, could have fixed it. I've seen a script of Buffy, as written before Joss made a few minor corrections to it, and yeah, those corrections were all the depth of the episode ,made a huge difference.
I'm okay with the deaths of Sam and Dean at the end of S2 and S3 because the resurrections came with huge consequences.
YES! And intentionally or not, created a sort of line of "inevitability" that's interesting to follow, and ties everything together well. And accentuated the boy's tragic flaw, which is something along the lines of "their amazing, fucked up relationship", which we love. So I'm definitely on board with that.
I kinda liked that Show went as wild with the resurrections, at first, it seemed like a gutsy, partially-meta thing to do, and it worked really well, IMO. Thing is that now it's no longer gutsy or cheeky or fresh.
I very much agree, about heaven, but even assuming the Winchesters do know they're going to heaven (some people say they don't remember that, but they seemed to remember at least part of it when they came back...? Or was that just before their memory wipe?) they could still make it work, for example - I would probably get really emotionally involved in a plot about each of them personally desperately wanting to get to experience life before they die. SPN death is so much about staying static (though if they'll be together, perhaps they can at least work out their relationship over eternity...?) - Just getting to live before you die. Trying things, being things, being part of society perhaps (not so much on board with that, but I can go with it, see Trial and Error) - my point is, i isn't like for every human but it doesn't ruin the show, necessarily.
My main problem with it, as I keep if grumbling about, is that it makes them even more privileged - in a show that originally got its cred from being about poor outlaws. Ugh, I need to write up my rant about that.
And i wanna point out again that this is so the perfect solution for this season - Cas dies, we're all worried during hiatus , but being human and pure he goes to heaven, gets his grace back, kicks Metatron's ass, comes back as an angel. And yeah, it won't have that much of a punch, since we *know* Cas will be back, cause we know he was signed for most of the season, and we know he's too much of a fan favorite to be killed at this point without being back in some form...
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Date: 2013-11-09 10:51 am (UTC)Interesting, and I did not know that! My memory is super fuzzy right now, but I do remember hearing something about how Kripke ran the writer's room versus how the other showrunners (I think Sera) ran it. Will try to find the source.
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Date: 2013-11-09 01:05 pm (UTC)I'd love to read/watch, if you find it :-)
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Date: 2013-11-12 08:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-21 11:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 11:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 10:48 am (UTC)x1000!
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Date: 2013-11-09 04:30 am (UTC)I'm in the middle of a longer story that I usually write, and I'm just having trouble finding the passion. The wanting, the yearning. Which is something I love in stories. And I haven't been impressed with the new season, partially because it doesn't seem like they are exploring anything new and yet the are also not dealing with any of the past ptsd-inducing stuff as much as they could. instead of dealing with anything, we get talking dogs and throwaway comments about Kevin being in Branson. We haven't even dealt with the implications of the bunker - as you pointed out. The boys have bucks now. like real money. The could sell one of those cars, hell some of the fixtures or mid-century furniture, and get some cash.
I know I'm being harsh and all these things have been touched on, but we used to get such good writing.
The revolving door of death has sapped all the emotion out of it. We knew Cas wasn't going to die, we knew Charlie wasn't permanently dead. We knew Zeke would take care of it. where's the tension? i would love to see them dealing with that they know they're going to heaven thing. Because for all fandom's talk of them being soulmates, as far as Dean knows, all sam's best memories don't have Dean in them. And who wants to spend eternity in the memories, regardless of how good they were? Heck, does Sam even know Dean didn't leave that horrible cell phone message yet? There is so much left to write about.
"Once upon a time, a sharp comment from John about "touching up his car" was cause for a lot of feeling/interesting character development and interactions, whereas now, another apocalypse barely fazes them. I so wish they would get back in touch with these characters' humanity." - This is what ineed to get back to in my own writing. I'm going to find those tiny moments and make them come out. I want to write post-season 7 stories.
Breakfast is burning. Thanks for the insight.
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Date: 2013-11-09 10:15 am (UTC)Or suddenly not being on the road most of the time - they're used to things being different, from knowing they're not gonna be meeting the same people (so not as many consequences for being weird, or one night stands, or even just not being used to experiencing the weirdness of having someone ask "so where's that friend of yours?" or "How did that pie work out for you" at the store, not being as anonymous, perhaps even being invited to be part of the community somehow, or people wanting to know where they live... the bunker is supposedly so disconnected and anonymous, but it does not exist in a vacuum.
Or things like leaving a mess, even. They're used to having someone pick up and clean for them. For all Dean's domesticity, there is a huge difference between making celebratory or guilt fueled dished once in a while, and actually doing housework. Housework is hard and annoying. for all they're so used to living around each other, wouldn't they ever have any trouble with that? Especially as Dean stops being so terrified about Sam's health?
i would love to see them dealing with that they know they're going to heaven thing. Because for all fandom's talk of them being soulmates, as far as Dean knows, all sam's best memories don't have Dean in them. And who wants to spend eternity in the memories, regardless of how good they were? Heck, does Sam even know Dean didn't leave that horrible cell phone message yet? There is so much left to write about.
Seconded! Yes, please!
This is what ineed to get back to in my own writing. I'm going to find those tiny moments and make them come out. I want to write post-season 7 stories.
OH! Yesyesyes, please do! That sounds *good*!
Hey, good luck with your writing, it sounds like it's going to be great! Glad this came at a good time for you. And hope breakfast was tasty anyway ;)-
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Date: 2013-11-09 07:20 am (UTC)I also realize that what I want from this show comes from a very invested fan place, which doesn't reflect the general viewing audience at large. And the writers are in the business of writing at TV show on a network TV schedule and budget with network executive oversight, which is driven by numbers and needs to appeal to a general audience. Part of me can see why delving too deeply into complex, thorny back story would alienate new, casual viewers or not really "fit" with the perceived action/horror stamp SPN seems to be branded with. As much as I love blabbing (in my head) about the writers and what they need/should be doing, I think what's largely forgotten about are the actual trappings of their jobs, how they don't have absolute free reign over every aspect of the story, and how that affects what we see or don't see onscreen. I bet there are a lot of interesting aspects of Sam and Dean's relationship they'd love to delve into, but just can't make it work with the constraints they're given and the desires of TPTB. And that's where fandom steps in....
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Date: 2013-11-09 09:56 am (UTC)Yeah, while apparently not being complexly influenced by previous rounds, weirdly...
I agree that it's become way more shallow, and the writers' agenda has probably changed (see my comment to Brightly_Lit). I disagree that not breaking the spiral they're in makes them boneheads, though. A whole lot of people - pretty much all people, to a certain degree - repeat their mistakes and have trouble seeing/breaking out of destructive behavior. I would hope for more of them trying to wriggle out of it (as I think you said), talking about it, *stuff*!
I disagree, about depth not going well with numbers. First of all - I want my needs met, and I'll demand that when I'm up to it, and if it's not what people in power want, I probably won't get it, but it doesn't mean my needs are any less valid or deserving. Second - I'm really not sure that's not what a lot of/most fans want. Regardless, telling the loyal fans to screw themselves is not wise. And third, importantly - it really doesn't have to clash. Subtext is subtext for a reason. It can go along with dumb storylines about talking animals. There was a litt of it, going nicely with the could-have-been-dumb storyline about Wizard of Oz. Sometimes it goes better with silly things, balancing each other out, like in so many past episodes of SPN. The Winchesters are built around not talking about things, except for a few important moments when they do. That can definitely work with fun plots, plots relatable to people not familiar with the history of the show, and can make forms of fanservice so much better.
I bet there are a lot of interesting aspects of Sam and Dean's relationship they'd love to delve into, but just can't make it work with the constraints they're given and the desires of TPTB
You know, I've been thinking a lot about it, and it really feels like that's not that much of a significant problem (hope I'm wrong). When writers want to write something and aren't allowed to, unless they just give up (perhaps the dog thing was a cry for help), it often peeps out is subtle ways, subtext, a random joke, it has a presence. I haven't felt much of any of that, lately... DK.
And that's where fandom steps in
Bless fandom.
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Date: 2013-11-09 10:39 am (UTC)And that's what makes this vicious cycle Sam and Dean are in *somewhat* plausible. But, again, it's almost rote now. What I'd like to see is an acknowledgment of the deception/lies/desperate codependency and an effort made to break it (on Dean's behalf at least). And even if it ends in failure (as it has at every previous turn) at least there's been a semblance of character growth. The fact is that the end result doesn't have to be different--i.e. the Winchesters will always put each other before all else, have major guilt issues and self-sacrifice (Sam), and lose their moral compasses when it comes to family (Dean)--but a story is about the struggle and effort, and that doesn't happen void of self-realization. Even in failure heroes are still heroes bec. they keep going even when they hate themselves, doubt themselves, think themselves weak. And that makes the victory earned. So, what I'm trying to say is that it's the nuances, the characterization turns, and the effort that matter even if the overall plot remains the same.
I want my needs met, and I'll demand that when I'm up to it, and if it's not what people in power want, I probably won't get it, but it doesn't mean my needs are any less valid or deserving....
I didn't say anything about validity of ideas/needs/wants of fandom nor was it my intention to imply that the writers were intentionally telling fandom to screw itself. I think we're very valid, and it's clear with the advent of social media that, as a whole, the SPN viewing audience is heard. However, I think there's a slight difference between being heard and being able to completely change the network writing process.
Subtext is one thing. I agree, it can easily be slid in pretty much anywhere. But what I was talking about was slotting large chunks of back story, past events, references to canon, specific incidents/conflicts that re-frame and contextualize the current story. The point I was trying to make was that I think there's just a lot of canon details 8 seasons in, and, for the casual viewer, holding all of those pieces simultaneously in order to makes sense of the current story is a lot to ask. I think instead of alienating/overwhelming viewers by becoming something akin to "Lost" (OK, I'm being dramatic but I hope you know what I'm getting at), TV executives look to sell as show that are a mix of things, one of which being accessible bec. they rely on not only keeping viewers but attracting more.
it really feels like that's not that much of a significant problem
You might find this an interesting read. :)
An interesting SPN example of network "input" (back in the Dawn O. days) was Bela Talbot. Her character was network driven, not showrunner/writer derived. Kripke admitted in later interviews that the network wanted a greater female presence in the show and someone to balance out Ruby's entrance. I always found it curious that Bela never really worked out on screen due to really poor execution even though, I think, on paper she had the trappings of a great character. I've always wondered why that was. I'm a great believer that the best things happen organically (like tying angles into the mytharc even though in S3 Kripke was vehemently denying heaven/angels/anything other than scrappy hunters battling the supernatural) and can't be forced. :)
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Date: 2013-11-09 01:00 pm (UTC)Yeah, I agree. And they seem to sometimes be aware of that...
What I'd like to see is an acknowledgment of the deception/lies/desperate codependency and an effort made to break it (on Dean's behalf at least). And even if it ends in failure (as it has at every previous turn) at least there's been a semblance of character growth
Why more on Dean's behalf? Either way - definitely would make a good season arc, if done well. Would appreciate an attempt, even, from the writers.
The fact is that the end result doesn't have to be different--i.e. the Winchesters will always put everything before all else, have major guilt issues and self-sacrifice (Sam), and lose their moral compasses when it comes to family (Dean)--but a story is about the struggle and effort, and that doesn't happen void of self-realization.
Tha t sounds real good.
So, what I'm trying to say is that it's the nuances, the characterization turns, and the effort that matter even if the overall plot remains the same.
Yeahyeah, agreed. That's what I hope to get back SPN again... But probably won't.
I didn't say anything about validity of ideas/needs/wants of fandom
Cool :)
I think there's a slight difference between being heard and being able to completely change the network writing process.
Oh, no argument there! I'm saying it would have been wise of them to act differently.
But what I was talking about was back story, past events, references to canon, specific incidents/conflicts that re-frame and contextualize the current story.
I get what you're saying, and agree that it can become much (haven't watched Lost, though), but I do believe it can be balanced in a way that will enable both to exist. They rarely even do the small comments like Sam's "There are no bells" thing last episode. And really, not only does SPN need to keep the existing audience, they need to keep their talent interested.
You might findthis an interesting read. :)
Interesting, terrifying... ;-)
An interesting SPN example of network "input" (back in the Dawn O. days) was Bela Talbot
Ooh, pet peeve! Except for Amelia, she is *so* my least favorite female character on the show. Brrr. Boring and insulting. And whenever Eric said he fans disliked her because we were just a bunch of catty, jealous women, I wanted to kick his ass so bad. On one hand I agree about things being organic - and definitely about the angels in the mytharc. On the other - sometimes it works so well... I know Eileen from Seinfeld was forced on the show in order to add a female character, and IMO she fit in great. My opinion of female characters in SPN before season 8, though, in general, is "just stop trying, it's not working, just write male characters". I do appreciate the many wonderful things people do with those characters in fandom.
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Date: 2013-11-09 10:38 am (UTC)Ugh.One of my BIGGEST pet peeves is when they kill off a character, only to bring them back right away (and sometimes, kill them again... and again). Not counting Sam and Dean of course, what with them being the main characters. And it's not only that it empties Dean's reactions, like you said. But as a viewer, it also robs the moment of any shock or emotion. I mean at this point, it would probably shock me even MORE if a character actually stayed dead.
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion.
And can I just say YESSSSSSSSSSSS to your whole post starting from this point on. I've said many times that, to me, it felt like the writers were lost after S5. Not so much because they lost Kripke's vision, but because they had no idea how to "top" the Apocalypse. A lot of TV seems to think that bigger = better, which is most definitely not the case! Because these characters have been through SO MUCH, and there's so much that can be explored just by dealing with what's going on in their heads. It might not be flashy, but it would be 1000x more compelling to me. And let's face it, it's not like the show has a huge budget for flashy stuff anyways. IIRC there were interviews for S5 where people mentioned not being able to show the war between heaven and hell because they didn't have the budget for VFX on that scale. But I think that added to one of my favourite parts of S5: that, despite the epic scale plot going on, the story was still focused on Sam&Dean.
That's why I had such high hopes during S7 when early interviews said that the show would go back to focusing on the brothers... and again for S8, but I was disappointed each time. While S7 did bring it back to the brothers, in the sense that Sam and Dean lost so many people and the Impala, we didn't get to see as much character development as I was hoping for. And same with S8.
he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things. and Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point
I think that both points I quoted above were touched on in S8, but again with the pacing problems! I think Time After Time could've made for a great two-parter. I would've loved to learned more about Henry and John, and how that affected Sam and Dean's view of John. And as for Sam feeling damaged, it took SO long for the show to get there, and by that point S8 was basically over. I think that's why S8 was so frustrating for me. After the dismal first third or so that I wish had never happened, the season took a turn for the better, and I was EXCITED about the show again! But it kept touching on things but never going all the way in exploring them.
ETA: I also want to add, re: your comment about Jensen becoming tired. I think it's really been showing since S8, because sometimes I honestly feel like I'm watching Jensen on screen instead of Dean. And I've seen him switch from Jensen to Dean like that at cons, so I know he can do it easy! So it's really sad if it's gotten to the point where he's phoning it in that much. There have been points during S8 where I felt like I was watching Jared instead of Sam as well, but that was mostly during Sam and Amelia scenes, and based on what Jared's said in interviews, I think that's more a case of Jared not having a clue how to play Sam rather than not trying.
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Date: 2013-11-09 04:00 pm (UTC)One of my BIGGEST pet peeves is when they kill off a character, only to bring them back right away (and sometimes, kill them again... and again)
Yeah... I wonder why they do that. With Cas, the fist time, I thought it was part of the cheeky meta thing about killing off characters and bringing them back. But how – why the second time? And Cas and Charlie just now - huh? Unless it's a hint about Zeke, or a plot thing (he doesn't bring them back exactly the same? ), or a hint at the end of the season (cause that's a way into heaven, and at least now we know Metaton left the part of heaven serving dead human probably working) – why? If they needed Zeke to do his healing thing – why not knock them out or something...?
But as a viewer, it also robs the moment of any shock or emotion
Yeah! And it's hard to even identify, to get something from it...
I mean at this point, it would probably shock me even MORE if a character actually stayed dead
Yeah, but when – two seasons later when they haven't been back yet?
Also – Meg... can we please have her back now? Please?
I've said many times that, to me, it felt like the writers were lost after S5. Not so much because they lost Kripke's vision, but because they had no idea how to "top" the Apocalypse
YES! I very much agree.
A lot of TV seems to think that bigger = better, which is most definitely not the case!
Absolutely. And so often "bigger" means boring plot driven story arcs.
I like the way Buffy dealt with something like that in season 6, will not spoil futher just in case.
IIRC there were interviews for S5 where people mentioned not being able to show the war between heaven and hell because they didn't have the budget for VFX on that scale. But I think that added to one of my favourite parts of S5: that, despite the epic scale plot going on, the story was still focused on Sam&Dean.
I love love love that. Love the thought, love what they actually did do. Dean getting beat up by Sam, Sam doing something nearly impossible - inner struggle – for Dean – and also Dean telling Sam it was his choice, and that Dean respected him as a grown man - that was fantastic. Way way better and more interesting than some costly battle scene, as I imagine it, at least.
And it's so the show, it's always about Dean and Sam in the end. Always. Good or bad. Choosing each other over anything, it's always down to the two of them, for each other. That bit at the heart of the show hasn't been very much developed, or deconstructed, or negated, or anything really, in ages. Here and there yes – Sam not looking for Dean, dean accepting Sam as a MoL – that was amazing – but so so so little...
I think Time After Time could've made for a great two-parter. I would've loved to learned more about Henry and John, and how that affected Sam and Dean's view of John.
YES! Perhaps he insisted on that crazy lifestyle of dragging his kids across the US, hunting, cause he didn't want to abandon them like his father did to him. Perhaps he was so incredibly hand-on with Dean cause that's what he would have wanted to have for himself (maybe it was like some sergeant he'd had, or someone else he'd looked up to, who was nothing like his refines dad). Perhaps he'd abandon his boys for weeks like that because of some related issue. Perhaps he was *so* angry with Sam leaving because he had issues with abandonmet by close family, and maybe he thought Sam was a brat for not appreciating how hard John worked in order to keep his kids close, how much he did sacrifice.
I loved the hint of relationship we got from Dean and Sam in Tim after Time, the way they both talked about John – sounded like perhaps they both got a little closed to each other's opinion of him, and perhaps learned not to get into the topic in order to avoid fighting about? It was interesting, and great to get. But so so little.
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Date: 2013-11-12 08:47 am (UTC)I have a theory about this kind of based on a future casting spoiler. I would love for there to be a good explanation for all these deaths, but honestly I think it's a cheap reason for Zeke to use up his powers so that he'll be stuck in Sam's body for longer, ie. the midseason hiatus.
Also – Meg... can we please have her back now? Please?
I loved Meg for the most part, but then S7 and 8 hit, and I was just like, WTF happened? I found her character to be very badly-written, and shoehorned into most of her episodes :(
and also Dean telling Sam it was his choice, and that Dean respected him as a grown man - that was fantastic.
YES. AND WHERE DID THAT GO?!? And yeah, no matter how much they saved for an epic battle scene, there's no way they could've made it believable. It's hard enough for multi-million dollar Hollywood films to pull it off!
Perhaps he was *so* angry with Sam leaving because he had issues with abandonmet by close family,
Oh my gosh, I don't know how this didn't occur to me earlier, but YES. John is one of those characters that I think really gets shortchanged in fandom. He so often gets painted as a flat-out abusive father (if not worse). Which he is, but there's a lot to his character that could be explored, but I so rarely see it. Which is a little surprising since we got so much more insight into his backstory with "Time After Time".
the way they both talked about John – sounded like perhaps they both got a little closed to each other's opinion of him, and perhaps learned not to get into the topic in order to avoid fighting about?
I definitely think that's the case.
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Date: 2013-11-21 11:31 am (UTC)Heh, I'm the oposite of that, but perhaps we can agree she was very different...
no matter how much they saved for an epic battle scene, there's no way they could've made it believable. It's hard enough for multi-million dollar Hollywood films to pull it off!
One of my troubles with my own writing, is the big action scenes. So many times it's just never finished, a bunch of scenes tagged with "here they run through corridors" that I never manage to write. I just don't care. I don't. Unless it's also a scene about other sorts of development, I just don't care. So I'm a fan of the way they did it there. And less of a fan of the second LotR movie.
Oh my gosh, I don't know how this didn't occur to me earlier, but YES. John is one of those characters that I think really gets shortchanged in fandom. He so often gets painted as a flat-out abusive father (if not worse). Which he is, but there's a lot to his character that could be explored, but I so rarely see it. Which is a little surprising since we got so much more insight into his backstory with "Time After Time".
IA. Perhaps some people who love writing John are already too used to the way they've been seeing him since s1, and some new people don't care as much about him cause they're more invested in current canon?
[and I don't have the time to write it like it deserves to be written... though it would be much more interesting than my homework, ugh]
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Date: 2013-11-22 11:30 am (UTC)Interesting. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on her, if you feel like discussing it. I know a lot of people loved her in the later seasons, but I just never got it :S
I can't imagine how hard action scenes must be to write! Having to capture that sense of movement and keeping track of multiple people, while keeping it coherent? Props to anyone who can do that well!
Perhaps some people who love writing John are already too used to the way they've been seeing him since s1, and some new people don't care as much about him cause they're more invested in current canon?
Yeah, I guess I'm one of those people who are a bit stuck seeing him with S1 characterization. I do recognize the newer canon, but damn if I don't have issues about how he was written!
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Date: 2013-11-22 05:12 pm (UTC)Well, I don't wanna bash a character you love. Not my taste :)
Yeah, I guess I'm one of those people who are a bit stuck seeing him with S1 characterization. I do recognize the newer canon, but damn if I don't have issues about how he was written!
Well, season 1 John is great! Good character, and JDM... YEAH.
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Date: 2013-11-25 08:57 am (UTC)Ok, fair enough :)
I MISS JDM SO MUCH GDI. I really wish that SPN would be able to afford him to get back on the show, because I think to see him as John again would add SO MUCH to the story. *adds to wishlist of things I wish SPN had the money for*
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Date: 2013-11-25 07:12 pm (UTC)And I have this insistent plot bunny, I don't even know why, about the boys getting back to the Batcave and him just being there, perhaps like some signifier of how much they'd changed and everything they do and thing differently now... and sort of having to work through what his presence brings up in them, and being different from what he'd like and in other ways being just what he'd like, and not being who he'd remember them as and expect them to be...
Also, I so wanna see them doing the "hiding their relationship from dad" as grown ups. So.
*adds to wishlist of things I wish SPN had the money for*
What else's on the list?
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Date: 2013-11-25 10:07 pm (UTC)What else's on the list?
Music! S8 and 9 seem to be working on including more music into the show, but S6 and 7 were really terrible on that front. And better VFX. I can tell that a LOT of the VFX on the show is not going to age well, unfortunately :S
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Date: 2013-11-25 10:14 pm (UTC)Oh, music! So very much in agreement there! <3
I kinda stopped expecting the music to be good anymore :-/
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Date: 2013-11-25 10:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-25 10:31 pm (UTC)Actually, I was thinking you probably wrote well, cause you strike me as someone who cares, loves and understands the characters, thinks about them.
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Date: 2013-11-25 11:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 04:00 pm (UTC)YES!!!
There was just a tiny little bit, IINM the main menton of it was in 821, and even that was about Sam having felt impure since he was a child – not about the things he'd gone through later. It was so interesting, a new part of Sam (in a way) – I was so glad to get it, so beautiful - and I liked that they left it untidy – and there the season ended (Jared <3). And I'm like – so glad you took the time to tell us your disturbing thoughts about slavery and BDSM instead of exploring this. (and negating some important canon – never been to the grand canyon – and some not so important canon – Dean is *not* allergic to cats!)
I agree. There were so many episodes that could have been awesome if they were twice or three times longer, instead of some of the others...
After the dismal first third or so that I wish had never happened,
*caugh*
You mean the weeks in which there was that second writer's strike, and the show wasn't on? It is a pity we didn't get to find out what happened exactly (Sam didn't look for Dean? Dean got together with a vampire?! And Cas- ?) but it's cute that they jumped into the middle of the season, as it things aired, even numbered the episodes according to the previous air dates. And it's so cute that fandom plays along with that, of course it does...
the season took a turn for the better, and I was EXCITED about the show again!
Me too...
I was losing hope, and everyone around me talked like they liked the eps (except for a few people who don't like anything, whom I was trying not to play with. They kept telling me how much they disliked Jared and Sam *pouts*) and I didn't know if I was just completely off, or what. And then – whiplash! Everything changed completely...
I wrote a song about it, at the time...But it kept touching on things but never going all the way in exploring them
Yes...
about Jensen becoming tired. I think it's really been showing since S8, because sometimes I honestly feel like I'm watching Jensen on screen instead of Dean
YES. It made me cry a couple of times, during the early episodes of season 8. He looked so tired and sad and even sometimes a little shocked with emotion - it was giving him trouble acting, it looked (to me) like – it felt to me lik he was saying goodbye to the show, like he was going through realizing he is one his way out - that it was not going to get better, that it and he was done
:-(
One thing though that I loved – in LARP he started using one of his Jensen smiles as Dean. A smile I adore. Itt's more of a mature, warm, caring smile, and it was there all the time for LARP, and a bunch of times after. To me it was character development rather than not being Dean.
And I've seen him switch from Jensen to Dean like that at cons, so I know he can do it easy!
Aww, hadn't thought of that... :-(
Perhaps the Dean he flips into at cons is more of a season 1-5 Dean? Harder to flip into that other/those other/what's going on with Dean, Deans?
There have been points during S8 where I felt like I was watching Jared instead of Sam as well, but that was mostly during Sam and Amelia scenes, and based on what Jared's said in interviews, I think that's more a case of Jared not having a clue how to play Sam rather than not trying.
Interesting.
And the interviews sound interesting too, haven't heard those.
In the last episode there was a moment that was so Jared to me, rather than Sam – his reaction to the people around after Dean was gonna shoot the pigeon.
Anyway – yeah.
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Date: 2013-11-12 08:57 am (UTC)S7 and 8 gave me SUCH bad whiplash. Honestly at times I felt like I was watching two completely different shows. And of course there was "Bitten" which basically WAS a whole different show LOL.
in LARP he started using one of his Jensen smiles as Dean. A smile I adore. Itt's more of a mature, warm, caring smile, and it was there all the time for LARP, and a bunch of times after. To me it was character development rather than not being Dean.
Awww I'll have to watch for that when I re-watch (LARP being one of the few S8 episodes I care to rewatch...). And yeah, those "Jensen moments" aren't always bad. IA it can be character development. Because of course, Jensen would draw on some of his own experiences for Dean. But sometimes, especially in more plot-heavy moments, the disconnect can be very jarring :S
Perhaps the Dean he flips into at cons is more of a season 1-5 Dean? Harder to flip into that other/those other/what's going on with Dean, Deans?
Maybe. He usually just goes into Dean mode to say a generic line or two, nothing really season-specific, IIRC, so it could be.
And the interviews sound interesting too, haven't heard those.
It could've been from a con and not an interview. Sorry but I don't usually save links for this stuff >.<
In the last episode there was a moment that was so Jared to me, rather than Sam – his reaction to the people around after Dean was gonna shoot the pigeon.
LOL it was so hard to suspend my disbelief at that scene, because it was SO OBVIOUSLY filmed outside the studio. It was like they weren't even trying to hide it. Normally I can suspend my disbelief and pretend that the locations are not!Vancouver (well, unless it's somewhere really familiar to me, like my school or something LOL). But that scene came off as incredibly lazy to me.
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Date: 2013-11-21 11:19 am (UTC)And I am a Robby supporter.
LOL it was so hard to suspend my disbelief at that scene, because it was SO OBVIOUSLY filmed outside the studio. It was like they weren't even trying to hide it. Normally I can suspend my disbelief and pretend that the locations are not!Vancouver (well, unless it's somewhere really familiar to me, like my school or something LOL)
Aw, cool, they fillmed at your school? :)
I guess that'd bother me more if I knew the places, as it is I just randomly sometimes go "oh, isn't that the same bridge from The End?" (which I sorta get, gorgeous place to shoot), etc. so I don't really mind. But had it been my hometown it would have bothered me a lot, I suspect!
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Date: 2013-11-22 11:37 am (UTC)Me too! He's just about the only new writer whose episodes I look forward to seeing. I feel like he understands the original vibe of the show. And even though the show has changed now, he still draws on that for inspiration. Although IA, "Bitten" was terrible. And I was disappointed with "Slumber Party" too. It fell short of his usual quality, IMO.
Aw, cool, they fillmed at your school? :)
Yeah, although I wasn't attending those schools at the time they were filming ("Hookman" and "Everybody Hates HItler").
I guess that'd bother me more if I knew the places
Sometimes the crew is really good at disguising places. Like they'll just turn the camera a different direction and have the location be set up as a whole new place. And it can be very hard to tell on screen! There's been less of that lately though. I find that, along with the quality of acting, writing, and directing generally getting worse, the locations team has also gotten worse :S
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Date: 2013-11-22 05:07 pm (UTC)Yeah! And he rethinks things. Like a good fic writer. Takes existing elements and gives them something new and good, a lot. Like the alarm system and the batcave.
I did appreciate Slumber Party, though, loved it.
Yeah, although I wasn't attending those schools at the time they were filming ("Hookman" and "Everybody Hates HItler").
That is so cool!
I once read a book written by someone who, it turned out, went to one of the schools I did, and so did many of the characters in her book. She described these dangerous stairs, a concrete yard and a prison atmosphere I knew well from that school - not sure I could have imagined something as hard to suspend as the design of that school...
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Date: 2013-11-25 08:55 am (UTC)Haha very cool! Although the school itself sounds a bit... cold?
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Date: 2013-11-25 07:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-25 10:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-25 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 05:46 pm (UTC)Unfortunately, I picture them gripping at their pens (in my mind, the best writing is still done with a pen and paper) with white knuckles and suddenly saying, "another filler episode?" because they don't know how to do it.
I do miss the earlier seasons when the boys cared - probably cared too much, but still, the desire and passion and hurt and anger and love really just slammed into your chest and made you feel for these two. But how do you keep that going? Something that popped into my head was them beginning to deal with a future for themselves. Yes, they have money now, a "home" where they both (at least temporarily) want to stay, and more stability then they ever had before. I'd like to see them dealing with wanderlust - maybe Dean starts to feel like his bedroom walls start caving in on him, or maybe it will be the opposite; Sam finds something he likes, maybe a little trinket or a picture or painting, so he hangs it up in his bedroom - and it hits him, wow, I have a bedroom, I have a home. And the real impact of never having a home or a family really hits him. Maybe it causes him to break down, maybe it doesn't.
Maybe Sam starts thinking about taking classes again, establishing a future for himself. He falls into a comfortable routine with Dean and Cas and Kevin, they start to have a life (even with the hunting) and then something happens to threaten it, but threatens it in a big way. Something they know they can't stop. Maybe that threat will take them all the way to the final episode. Because they death doesn't always mean death as someone above me pointed out (sidenote - a friend that watches an episode or two of Supernatural with me every now and again didn't understand why I was so upset when Bobby died because: "you know he'll just come back in an episode or three - who cares). And if fans are that compliant with death, yikes, think about how the boys feel.
I also feel like there is a lot of potential in Crowley (and man, he needs a bigger story arch in this season!), human!Cas to bring back emotions to Sam and Dean. Crowley's "I deserve to be loved" from the previous season needs to be tapped into. It was a great parallel to Dean's outburst in Dream a Little Dream: I didn't deserve what he put on me and I don't deserve to go to Hell! As much as I don't want Crowley humanized, it could be a great device to help Dean with some self-actualization. Maybe it can bring him back to that time and made him reflect on everything he's done, on the paths he's taken, on how he's lost touch with that young man that wanted to save everyone - instead of stabbing human vessels to get rid of demons.
I don't know - it's just sad to watch a show that I love struggle under the weight of - the weight of what? Pressure, direction, fan service? I almost feel like everyone needs to take a step back and breathe before they jump in. Go back and pick out things that haven't been touched upon (like Sam's heaven not including family, ect) and bringing those elements back in a way that compliments the story line and pushes our boys forward with a spark in their eyes.
I feel like I'm forgetting a lot of what I wanted to say.
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Date: 2013-11-10 10:27 am (UTC)That's pretty similar to the way I imagine the writers too, sadly...
(in my mind, the best writing is still done with a pen and paper)
Oh, of course! ;)
clearly, they've been using computers for this epI do miss the earlier seasons when the boys cared - probably cared too much, but still, the desire and passion and hurt and anger and love really just
Yeah...
As for how to keep that going - I do feel that a good way to do that would be by going in, rather than creating new plots, (there are some plot suggestions here and in the comments), but I'd definitely watch a plot in which Sam actually goes back to school, after years of Dean being afraid of that, but in this new situation. I'd like to see that. It could be interesting, definitely.
Which reminds me that I was thinking Sam could be a good psychologist, actually, rather than a lawyer. He can be very empathic, not horribly judgmental, very attentive and sensitive sometimes, and he's been through - well, he's been to hell and back, he knows suffering. He seems to believe in therapy, and also was delusional himself - he gets it. So for the Winchester career day, I'd suggest this to him, if he wanted that. OTOH, perhaps yet another path of helping people won't be good for him.
I also feel like there is a lot of potential in Crowley (and man, he needs a bigger story arch in this season!)
Agreed. I'd rather see Winchesters, but agreed.
Crowley's "I deserve to be loved" from the previous season needs to be tapped into
DEFINITELY. Has to be, has to...
It was a great parallel to Dean's outburst in Dream a Little Dream
Ooh, I like that! Interesting!
I'd like to see that explored, perhaps a moment or ten with Dean, with Sam (with Sam, please!)
As much as I don't want Crowley humanized, it could be a great device to help Dean with some self-actualization
Oooh! Yes, please!