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citrus_javaI keep hearing that SPN is getting old, as if the characters are mostly as explored as they can get, no more stories to tell. I think that's very far from true, it's more about the writers losing attention and willingness to change, as well as forgetting way too much about the show's past.
One thing I miss about SPN canon, as well as most of the fic I've come across lately, is a strong desire. For anything. Nobody on the show seems hungry anymore, or rather, if they're hungry they're resigned or just quiet about it (even poor Cas).
Even most of the fic I've read lately didn't have that hunger (maybe it was just a coincident) - for love, for sex, for being OK, for safely, for not being left, etc. It was about other things, some of them interesting, like pain, foreboding, creepiness, gloominess, depression, tentative fun - but not so much hunger or desire.
I thought perhaps it was about missing first-time fic, but established relationship can be just as dramatic and interesting if not more. I imagine, no idea if it's true, that SPN has that much established relationship fic partial because at some point the utter wonder and newness that makes a lot of first-times work, was repeated so many times it lost its magic for a while, and established relationship fics became more interesting. Though I love that fandom has both these days, as well as other options.
Anyway - The most dramatic thing Dean needed this season, to save Sam's life - looks like he pretty much knew he would be able to, and that even if he failed, it'll be ok in some way. And going through almost losing Cas, and Cas being OK, right after what happened with Sam, and again right away with Charlie, empties it all of real fear, desperation, real hunger.
The thing is, it's cool that Dean lives in his reality, and doesn't keep believing it's a completely new thing every time. But wouldn't he, then, feel other things instead? Yeah, now he has money (we assume), a place to live, Sam probably wanting to stay, and more assurance than other people have that his loved ones and he himself will probably be ok(though IDK why Zeke wouldn't let Dean himself die, who knows) . But when people get what they want, it often influences them... Wanting to protect that new shiny thing (which may be where Dean is, but we hardly get to see it), missing even bad things from the past, now that they're gone - something. The writers hitting Dean exactly the same way as he dealt with so many times alread, seemingly with the half-expectation that it'll work as if it's new, may be the writers not living in the reality of the show.
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion. Sometimes it has to do with the one last thing a person will get emotional over before they collapse. Sometimes it has to do with subtlety, maturity, a less dramatic way of looking at things and feelings, even though they may still matter to the person just as much. Or finding out you don't actually want things you'd been pining over for so long, or fighting for (like in Amanda Palmer's In My Mind). Or finding out that you've made peace, or that wonder of wonders - real wonder - you're capable of still wanting something new after all of that time (Like in the beautiful Paladin of Souls). Or capable of being new, yourself.
It can be about actually going through mourning some of the things that have been done to you, or you've done to yourself or others. The Winchesters were so often faced with disaster after disaster, without really getting time to deal with it (except for a few rare situations), it could be interesting if suddenly they started having feelings about things they just now has the time and safety to deal with.
Even "smaller" tragedies, like Dean feeling sorrow for not being what Jo wanted from him before she died, or anger at Crowley for getting her killed, or being shaken from Baby being flipped and crashing, with hm inside her, or seemingly irrational anger at Sam for beating him up while he was possessed, so many other things. Mourning things that happened to him as a kid, he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things.
And the way dealing with that would make him act, would change the way he acts with Sam and Cas, and Kevin. He might start going out and sleeping with waitresses again, might take up some odd hobby he never allowed himself to try, might become more vulnerable over small things, yell more, less with his "everything's good" attitude - I don't know. But I'd like to see.
Or it can be about living with a disability, or with scars. Like, for Sam - when the world *isn't* really falling apart and you're *not* going through the trials expecting to die soon, you suddenly have to deal. Now is probably the first time Sam's had where he wasn't completely stricken with grief or fighting something huge, since the first episode - or perhaps since before Stanford, in a way. Sam had said some fascinating things, to me, about living with mental issues, hallucinations - I want to hear more. And see some of the less photogenic, more everyday aspects of it. (like not decorating - clearly that was about fear, perhaps it was anxiety he was hiding from Dean)
But it doesn't have be about living with disability.I'd love more development for Sam in general, there's so much inside that boy that so rarely gets expressed, and Jared could make it beautiful and interesting of he got enough of it, too. Sam has a lot to deal with. He was raped, probably repeatedly, he lost all his loved ones, and was left utterly alone and with no one who could even understand, a short while ago. He was raised into a dark, scary world, forced to stay, tried to run away & failed twice. Even his anger issues - very justifiable anger - haven't necessarily been resolved. And more and more...
Perhaps his feelings of being damaged and impure extend beyond demon blood, perhaps it's also about his guilt, helplessness, internalized self loathing, feeling he doesn't measure up, things like handling being tortured/raped - whatever he may still be going through. There is something there, judging by those held back, sad little faces he makes, even when he's good. And along with that, as he said, he does see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it sounded like (I really hope!) he wants to reach that light and have a life with Dean.
Though I believe a lot of it is about feeling he isn't good enough in Dean's eyes.
So, now that he *isn't* in any huge danger he is aware of, perhaps it'd be harder for him, cause he'd need to deal. Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point. Perhaps now, dealing with things like staying - moving in, too - is difficult in a whole different way. And perhaps if he's aware of that - which he is likely to become, being pretty sensitive about that sort of stuff perhaps he'd even think he's forcing his suspicions towards Dean, just to have something distracting to worry about.
One thing I miss about SPN canon, as well as most of the fic I've come across lately, is a strong desire. For anything. Nobody on the show seems hungry anymore, or rather, if they're hungry they're resigned or just quiet about it (even poor Cas).
Even most of the fic I've read lately didn't have that hunger (maybe it was just a coincident) - for love, for sex, for being OK, for safely, for not being left, etc. It was about other things, some of them interesting, like pain, foreboding, creepiness, gloominess, depression, tentative fun - but not so much hunger or desire.
I thought perhaps it was about missing first-time fic, but established relationship can be just as dramatic and interesting if not more. I imagine, no idea if it's true, that SPN has that much established relationship fic partial because at some point the utter wonder and newness that makes a lot of first-times work, was repeated so many times it lost its magic for a while, and established relationship fics became more interesting. Though I love that fandom has both these days, as well as other options.
Anyway - The most dramatic thing Dean needed this season, to save Sam's life - looks like he pretty much knew he would be able to, and that even if he failed, it'll be ok in some way. And going through almost losing Cas, and Cas being OK, right after what happened with Sam, and again right away with Charlie, empties it all of real fear, desperation, real hunger.
The thing is, it's cool that Dean lives in his reality, and doesn't keep believing it's a completely new thing every time. But wouldn't he, then, feel other things instead? Yeah, now he has money (we assume), a place to live, Sam probably wanting to stay, and more assurance than other people have that his loved ones and he himself will probably be ok
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion. Sometimes it has to do with the one last thing a person will get emotional over before they collapse. Sometimes it has to do with subtlety, maturity, a less dramatic way of looking at things and feelings, even though they may still matter to the person just as much. Or finding out you don't actually want things you'd been pining over for so long, or fighting for (like in Amanda Palmer's In My Mind). Or finding out that you've made peace, or that wonder of wonders - real wonder - you're capable of still wanting something new after all of that time (Like in the beautiful Paladin of Souls). Or capable of being new, yourself.
It can be about actually going through mourning some of the things that have been done to you, or you've done to yourself or others. The Winchesters were so often faced with disaster after disaster, without really getting time to deal with it (except for a few rare situations), it could be interesting if suddenly they started having feelings about things they just now has the time and safety to deal with.
Even "smaller" tragedies, like Dean feeling sorrow for not being what Jo wanted from him before she died, or anger at Crowley for getting her killed, or being shaken from Baby being flipped and crashing, with hm inside her, or seemingly irrational anger at Sam for beating him up while he was possessed, so many other things. Mourning things that happened to him as a kid, he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things.
And the way dealing with that would make him act, would change the way he acts with Sam and Cas, and Kevin. He might start going out and sleeping with waitresses again, might take up some odd hobby he never allowed himself to try, might become more vulnerable over small things, yell more, less with his "everything's good" attitude - I don't know. But I'd like to see.
Or it can be about living with a disability, or with scars. Like, for Sam - when the world *isn't* really falling apart and you're *not* going through the trials expecting to die soon, you suddenly have to deal. Now is probably the first time Sam's had where he wasn't completely stricken with grief or fighting something huge, since the first episode - or perhaps since before Stanford, in a way. Sam had said some fascinating things, to me, about living with mental issues, hallucinations - I want to hear more. And see some of the less photogenic, more everyday aspects of it. (like not decorating - clearly that was about fear, perhaps it was anxiety he was hiding from Dean)
But it doesn't have be about living with disability.
Perhaps his feelings of being damaged and impure extend beyond demon blood, perhaps it's also about his guilt, helplessness, internalized self loathing, feeling he doesn't measure up, things like handling being tortured/raped - whatever he may still be going through. There is something there, judging by those held back, sad little faces he makes, even when he's good. And along with that, as he said, he does see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it sounded like (I really hope!) he wants to reach that light and have a life with Dean.
Though I believe a lot of it is about feeling he isn't good enough in Dean's eyes.
So, now that he *isn't* in any huge danger he is aware of, perhaps it'd be harder for him, cause he'd need to deal. Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point. Perhaps now, dealing with things like staying - moving in, too - is difficult in a whole different way. And perhaps if he's aware of that - which he is likely to become, being pretty sensitive about that sort of stuff perhaps he'd even think he's forcing his suspicions towards Dean, just to have something distracting to worry about.
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no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 04:00 pm (UTC)YES!!!
There was just a tiny little bit, IINM the main menton of it was in 821, and even that was about Sam having felt impure since he was a child – not about the things he'd gone through later. It was so interesting, a new part of Sam (in a way) – I was so glad to get it, so beautiful - and I liked that they left it untidy – and there the season ended (Jared <3). And I'm like – so glad you took the time to tell us your disturbing thoughts about slavery and BDSM instead of exploring this. (and negating some important canon – never been to the grand canyon – and some not so important canon – Dean is *not* allergic to cats!)
I agree. There were so many episodes that could have been awesome if they were twice or three times longer, instead of some of the others...
After the dismal first third or so that I wish had never happened,
*caugh*
You mean the weeks in which there was that second writer's strike, and the show wasn't on? It is a pity we didn't get to find out what happened exactly (Sam didn't look for Dean? Dean got together with a vampire?! And Cas- ?) but it's cute that they jumped into the middle of the season, as it things aired, even numbered the episodes according to the previous air dates. And it's so cute that fandom plays along with that, of course it does...
the season took a turn for the better, and I was EXCITED about the show again!
Me too...
I was losing hope, and everyone around me talked like they liked the eps (except for a few people who don't like anything, whom I was trying not to play with. They kept telling me how much they disliked Jared and Sam *pouts*) and I didn't know if I was just completely off, or what. And then – whiplash! Everything changed completely...
I wrote a song about it, at the time...But it kept touching on things but never going all the way in exploring them
Yes...
about Jensen becoming tired. I think it's really been showing since S8, because sometimes I honestly feel like I'm watching Jensen on screen instead of Dean
YES. It made me cry a couple of times, during the early episodes of season 8. He looked so tired and sad and even sometimes a little shocked with emotion - it was giving him trouble acting, it looked (to me) like – it felt to me lik he was saying goodbye to the show, like he was going through realizing he is one his way out - that it was not going to get better, that it and he was done
:-(
One thing though that I loved – in LARP he started using one of his Jensen smiles as Dean. A smile I adore. Itt's more of a mature, warm, caring smile, and it was there all the time for LARP, and a bunch of times after. To me it was character development rather than not being Dean.
And I've seen him switch from Jensen to Dean like that at cons, so I know he can do it easy!
Aww, hadn't thought of that... :-(
Perhaps the Dean he flips into at cons is more of a season 1-5 Dean? Harder to flip into that other/those other/what's going on with Dean, Deans?
There have been points during S8 where I felt like I was watching Jared instead of Sam as well, but that was mostly during Sam and Amelia scenes, and based on what Jared's said in interviews, I think that's more a case of Jared not having a clue how to play Sam rather than not trying.
Interesting.
And the interviews sound interesting too, haven't heard those.
In the last episode there was a moment that was so Jared to me, rather than Sam – his reaction to the people around after Dean was gonna shoot the pigeon.
Anyway – yeah.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-12 08:57 am (UTC)S7 and 8 gave me SUCH bad whiplash. Honestly at times I felt like I was watching two completely different shows. And of course there was "Bitten" which basically WAS a whole different show LOL.
in LARP he started using one of his Jensen smiles as Dean. A smile I adore. Itt's more of a mature, warm, caring smile, and it was there all the time for LARP, and a bunch of times after. To me it was character development rather than not being Dean.
Awww I'll have to watch for that when I re-watch (LARP being one of the few S8 episodes I care to rewatch...). And yeah, those "Jensen moments" aren't always bad. IA it can be character development. Because of course, Jensen would draw on some of his own experiences for Dean. But sometimes, especially in more plot-heavy moments, the disconnect can be very jarring :S
Perhaps the Dean he flips into at cons is more of a season 1-5 Dean? Harder to flip into that other/those other/what's going on with Dean, Deans?
Maybe. He usually just goes into Dean mode to say a generic line or two, nothing really season-specific, IIRC, so it could be.
And the interviews sound interesting too, haven't heard those.
It could've been from a con and not an interview. Sorry but I don't usually save links for this stuff >.<
In the last episode there was a moment that was so Jared to me, rather than Sam – his reaction to the people around after Dean was gonna shoot the pigeon.
LOL it was so hard to suspend my disbelief at that scene, because it was SO OBVIOUSLY filmed outside the studio. It was like they weren't even trying to hide it. Normally I can suspend my disbelief and pretend that the locations are not!Vancouver (well, unless it's somewhere really familiar to me, like my school or something LOL). But that scene came off as incredibly lazy to me.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-21 11:19 am (UTC)And I am a Robby supporter.
LOL it was so hard to suspend my disbelief at that scene, because it was SO OBVIOUSLY filmed outside the studio. It was like they weren't even trying to hide it. Normally I can suspend my disbelief and pretend that the locations are not!Vancouver (well, unless it's somewhere really familiar to me, like my school or something LOL)
Aw, cool, they fillmed at your school? :)
I guess that'd bother me more if I knew the places, as it is I just randomly sometimes go "oh, isn't that the same bridge from The End?" (which I sorta get, gorgeous place to shoot), etc. so I don't really mind. But had it been my hometown it would have bothered me a lot, I suspect!
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 11:37 am (UTC)Me too! He's just about the only new writer whose episodes I look forward to seeing. I feel like he understands the original vibe of the show. And even though the show has changed now, he still draws on that for inspiration. Although IA, "Bitten" was terrible. And I was disappointed with "Slumber Party" too. It fell short of his usual quality, IMO.
Aw, cool, they fillmed at your school? :)
Yeah, although I wasn't attending those schools at the time they were filming ("Hookman" and "Everybody Hates HItler").
I guess that'd bother me more if I knew the places
Sometimes the crew is really good at disguising places. Like they'll just turn the camera a different direction and have the location be set up as a whole new place. And it can be very hard to tell on screen! There's been less of that lately though. I find that, along with the quality of acting, writing, and directing generally getting worse, the locations team has also gotten worse :S
no subject
Date: 2013-11-22 05:07 pm (UTC)Yeah! And he rethinks things. Like a good fic writer. Takes existing elements and gives them something new and good, a lot. Like the alarm system and the batcave.
I did appreciate Slumber Party, though, loved it.
Yeah, although I wasn't attending those schools at the time they were filming ("Hookman" and "Everybody Hates HItler").
That is so cool!
I once read a book written by someone who, it turned out, went to one of the schools I did, and so did many of the characters in her book. She described these dangerous stairs, a concrete yard and a prison atmosphere I knew well from that school - not sure I could have imagined something as hard to suspend as the design of that school...
no subject
Date: 2013-11-25 08:55 am (UTC)Haha very cool! Although the school itself sounds a bit... cold?
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Date: 2013-11-25 07:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-25 10:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-25 10:11 pm (UTC)