![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
citrus_javaI keep hearing that SPN is getting old, as if the characters are mostly as explored as they can get, no more stories to tell. I think that's very far from true, it's more about the writers losing attention and willingness to change, as well as forgetting way too much about the show's past.
One thing I miss about SPN canon, as well as most of the fic I've come across lately, is a strong desire. For anything. Nobody on the show seems hungry anymore, or rather, if they're hungry they're resigned or just quiet about it (even poor Cas).
Even most of the fic I've read lately didn't have that hunger (maybe it was just a coincident) - for love, for sex, for being OK, for safely, for not being left, etc. It was about other things, some of them interesting, like pain, foreboding, creepiness, gloominess, depression, tentative fun - but not so much hunger or desire.
I thought perhaps it was about missing first-time fic, but established relationship can be just as dramatic and interesting if not more. I imagine, no idea if it's true, that SPN has that much established relationship fic partial because at some point the utter wonder and newness that makes a lot of first-times work, was repeated so many times it lost its magic for a while, and established relationship fics became more interesting. Though I love that fandom has both these days, as well as other options.
Anyway - The most dramatic thing Dean needed this season, to save Sam's life - looks like he pretty much knew he would be able to, and that even if he failed, it'll be ok in some way. And going through almost losing Cas, and Cas being OK, right after what happened with Sam, and again right away with Charlie, empties it all of real fear, desperation, real hunger.
The thing is, it's cool that Dean lives in his reality, and doesn't keep believing it's a completely new thing every time. But wouldn't he, then, feel other things instead? Yeah, now he has money (we assume), a place to live, Sam probably wanting to stay, and more assurance than other people have that his loved ones and he himself will probably be ok(though IDK why Zeke wouldn't let Dean himself die, who knows) . But when people get what they want, it often influences them... Wanting to protect that new shiny thing (which may be where Dean is, but we hardly get to see it), missing even bad things from the past, now that they're gone - something. The writers hitting Dean exactly the same way as he dealt with so many times alread, seemingly with the half-expectation that it'll work as if it's new, may be the writers not living in the reality of the show.
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion. Sometimes it has to do with the one last thing a person will get emotional over before they collapse. Sometimes it has to do with subtlety, maturity, a less dramatic way of looking at things and feelings, even though they may still matter to the person just as much. Or finding out you don't actually want things you'd been pining over for so long, or fighting for (like in Amanda Palmer's In My Mind). Or finding out that you've made peace, or that wonder of wonders - real wonder - you're capable of still wanting something new after all of that time (Like in the beautiful Paladin of Souls). Or capable of being new, yourself.
It can be about actually going through mourning some of the things that have been done to you, or you've done to yourself or others. The Winchesters were so often faced with disaster after disaster, without really getting time to deal with it (except for a few rare situations), it could be interesting if suddenly they started having feelings about things they just now has the time and safety to deal with.
Even "smaller" tragedies, like Dean feeling sorrow for not being what Jo wanted from him before she died, or anger at Crowley for getting her killed, or being shaken from Baby being flipped and crashing, with hm inside her, or seemingly irrational anger at Sam for beating him up while he was possessed, so many other things. Mourning things that happened to him as a kid, he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things.
And the way dealing with that would make him act, would change the way he acts with Sam and Cas, and Kevin. He might start going out and sleeping with waitresses again, might take up some odd hobby he never allowed himself to try, might become more vulnerable over small things, yell more, less with his "everything's good" attitude - I don't know. But I'd like to see.
Or it can be about living with a disability, or with scars. Like, for Sam - when the world *isn't* really falling apart and you're *not* going through the trials expecting to die soon, you suddenly have to deal. Now is probably the first time Sam's had where he wasn't completely stricken with grief or fighting something huge, since the first episode - or perhaps since before Stanford, in a way. Sam had said some fascinating things, to me, about living with mental issues, hallucinations - I want to hear more. And see some of the less photogenic, more everyday aspects of it. (like not decorating - clearly that was about fear, perhaps it was anxiety he was hiding from Dean)
But it doesn't have be about living with disability.I'd love more development for Sam in general, there's so much inside that boy that so rarely gets expressed, and Jared could make it beautiful and interesting of he got enough of it, too. Sam has a lot to deal with. He was raped, probably repeatedly, he lost all his loved ones, and was left utterly alone and with no one who could even understand, a short while ago. He was raised into a dark, scary world, forced to stay, tried to run away & failed twice. Even his anger issues - very justifiable anger - haven't necessarily been resolved. And more and more...
Perhaps his feelings of being damaged and impure extend beyond demon blood, perhaps it's also about his guilt, helplessness, internalized self loathing, feeling he doesn't measure up, things like handling being tortured/raped - whatever he may still be going through. There is something there, judging by those held back, sad little faces he makes, even when he's good. And along with that, as he said, he does see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it sounded like (I really hope!) he wants to reach that light and have a life with Dean.
Though I believe a lot of it is about feeling he isn't good enough in Dean's eyes.
So, now that he *isn't* in any huge danger he is aware of, perhaps it'd be harder for him, cause he'd need to deal. Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point. Perhaps now, dealing with things like staying - moving in, too - is difficult in a whole different way. And perhaps if he's aware of that - which he is likely to become, being pretty sensitive about that sort of stuff perhaps he'd even think he's forcing his suspicions towards Dean, just to have something distracting to worry about.
One thing I miss about SPN canon, as well as most of the fic I've come across lately, is a strong desire. For anything. Nobody on the show seems hungry anymore, or rather, if they're hungry they're resigned or just quiet about it (even poor Cas).
Even most of the fic I've read lately didn't have that hunger (maybe it was just a coincident) - for love, for sex, for being OK, for safely, for not being left, etc. It was about other things, some of them interesting, like pain, foreboding, creepiness, gloominess, depression, tentative fun - but not so much hunger or desire.
I thought perhaps it was about missing first-time fic, but established relationship can be just as dramatic and interesting if not more. I imagine, no idea if it's true, that SPN has that much established relationship fic partial because at some point the utter wonder and newness that makes a lot of first-times work, was repeated so many times it lost its magic for a while, and established relationship fics became more interesting. Though I love that fandom has both these days, as well as other options.
Anyway - The most dramatic thing Dean needed this season, to save Sam's life - looks like he pretty much knew he would be able to, and that even if he failed, it'll be ok in some way. And going through almost losing Cas, and Cas being OK, right after what happened with Sam, and again right away with Charlie, empties it all of real fear, desperation, real hunger.
The thing is, it's cool that Dean lives in his reality, and doesn't keep believing it's a completely new thing every time. But wouldn't he, then, feel other things instead? Yeah, now he has money (we assume), a place to live, Sam probably wanting to stay, and more assurance than other people have that his loved ones and he himself will probably be ok
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion. Sometimes it has to do with the one last thing a person will get emotional over before they collapse. Sometimes it has to do with subtlety, maturity, a less dramatic way of looking at things and feelings, even though they may still matter to the person just as much. Or finding out you don't actually want things you'd been pining over for so long, or fighting for (like in Amanda Palmer's In My Mind). Or finding out that you've made peace, or that wonder of wonders - real wonder - you're capable of still wanting something new after all of that time (Like in the beautiful Paladin of Souls). Or capable of being new, yourself.
It can be about actually going through mourning some of the things that have been done to you, or you've done to yourself or others. The Winchesters were so often faced with disaster after disaster, without really getting time to deal with it (except for a few rare situations), it could be interesting if suddenly they started having feelings about things they just now has the time and safety to deal with.
Even "smaller" tragedies, like Dean feeling sorrow for not being what Jo wanted from him before she died, or anger at Crowley for getting her killed, or being shaken from Baby being flipped and crashing, with hm inside her, or seemingly irrational anger at Sam for beating him up while he was possessed, so many other things. Mourning things that happened to him as a kid, he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things.
And the way dealing with that would make him act, would change the way he acts with Sam and Cas, and Kevin. He might start going out and sleeping with waitresses again, might take up some odd hobby he never allowed himself to try, might become more vulnerable over small things, yell more, less with his "everything's good" attitude - I don't know. But I'd like to see.
Or it can be about living with a disability, or with scars. Like, for Sam - when the world *isn't* really falling apart and you're *not* going through the trials expecting to die soon, you suddenly have to deal. Now is probably the first time Sam's had where he wasn't completely stricken with grief or fighting something huge, since the first episode - or perhaps since before Stanford, in a way. Sam had said some fascinating things, to me, about living with mental issues, hallucinations - I want to hear more. And see some of the less photogenic, more everyday aspects of it. (like not decorating - clearly that was about fear, perhaps it was anxiety he was hiding from Dean)
But it doesn't have be about living with disability.
Perhaps his feelings of being damaged and impure extend beyond demon blood, perhaps it's also about his guilt, helplessness, internalized self loathing, feeling he doesn't measure up, things like handling being tortured/raped - whatever he may still be going through. There is something there, judging by those held back, sad little faces he makes, even when he's good. And along with that, as he said, he does see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it sounded like (I really hope!) he wants to reach that light and have a life with Dean.
Though I believe a lot of it is about feeling he isn't good enough in Dean's eyes.
So, now that he *isn't* in any huge danger he is aware of, perhaps it'd be harder for him, cause he'd need to deal. Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point. Perhaps now, dealing with things like staying - moving in, too - is difficult in a whole different way. And perhaps if he's aware of that - which he is likely to become, being pretty sensitive about that sort of stuff perhaps he'd even think he's forcing his suspicions towards Dean, just to have something distracting to worry about.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 10:39 am (UTC)And that's what makes this vicious cycle Sam and Dean are in *somewhat* plausible. But, again, it's almost rote now. What I'd like to see is an acknowledgment of the deception/lies/desperate codependency and an effort made to break it (on Dean's behalf at least). And even if it ends in failure (as it has at every previous turn) at least there's been a semblance of character growth. The fact is that the end result doesn't have to be different--i.e. the Winchesters will always put each other before all else, have major guilt issues and self-sacrifice (Sam), and lose their moral compasses when it comes to family (Dean)--but a story is about the struggle and effort, and that doesn't happen void of self-realization. Even in failure heroes are still heroes bec. they keep going even when they hate themselves, doubt themselves, think themselves weak. And that makes the victory earned. So, what I'm trying to say is that it's the nuances, the characterization turns, and the effort that matter even if the overall plot remains the same.
I want my needs met, and I'll demand that when I'm up to it, and if it's not what people in power want, I probably won't get it, but it doesn't mean my needs are any less valid or deserving....
I didn't say anything about validity of ideas/needs/wants of fandom nor was it my intention to imply that the writers were intentionally telling fandom to screw itself. I think we're very valid, and it's clear with the advent of social media that, as a whole, the SPN viewing audience is heard. However, I think there's a slight difference between being heard and being able to completely change the network writing process.
Subtext is one thing. I agree, it can easily be slid in pretty much anywhere. But what I was talking about was slotting large chunks of back story, past events, references to canon, specific incidents/conflicts that re-frame and contextualize the current story. The point I was trying to make was that I think there's just a lot of canon details 8 seasons in, and, for the casual viewer, holding all of those pieces simultaneously in order to makes sense of the current story is a lot to ask. I think instead of alienating/overwhelming viewers by becoming something akin to "Lost" (OK, I'm being dramatic but I hope you know what I'm getting at), TV executives look to sell as show that are a mix of things, one of which being accessible bec. they rely on not only keeping viewers but attracting more.
it really feels like that's not that much of a significant problem
You might find this an interesting read. :)
An interesting SPN example of network "input" (back in the Dawn O. days) was Bela Talbot. Her character was network driven, not showrunner/writer derived. Kripke admitted in later interviews that the network wanted a greater female presence in the show and someone to balance out Ruby's entrance. I always found it curious that Bela never really worked out on screen due to really poor execution even though, I think, on paper she had the trappings of a great character. I've always wondered why that was. I'm a great believer that the best things happen organically (like tying angles into the mytharc even though in S3 Kripke was vehemently denying heaven/angels/anything other than scrappy hunters battling the supernatural) and can't be forced. :)
no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 01:00 pm (UTC)Yeah, I agree. And they seem to sometimes be aware of that...
What I'd like to see is an acknowledgment of the deception/lies/desperate codependency and an effort made to break it (on Dean's behalf at least). And even if it ends in failure (as it has at every previous turn) at least there's been a semblance of character growth
Why more on Dean's behalf? Either way - definitely would make a good season arc, if done well. Would appreciate an attempt, even, from the writers.
The fact is that the end result doesn't have to be different--i.e. the Winchesters will always put everything before all else, have major guilt issues and self-sacrifice (Sam), and lose their moral compasses when it comes to family (Dean)--but a story is about the struggle and effort, and that doesn't happen void of self-realization.
Tha t sounds real good.
So, what I'm trying to say is that it's the nuances, the characterization turns, and the effort that matter even if the overall plot remains the same.
Yeahyeah, agreed. That's what I hope to get back SPN again... But probably won't.
I didn't say anything about validity of ideas/needs/wants of fandom
Cool :)
I think there's a slight difference between being heard and being able to completely change the network writing process.
Oh, no argument there! I'm saying it would have been wise of them to act differently.
But what I was talking about was back story, past events, references to canon, specific incidents/conflicts that re-frame and contextualize the current story.
I get what you're saying, and agree that it can become much (haven't watched Lost, though), but I do believe it can be balanced in a way that will enable both to exist. They rarely even do the small comments like Sam's "There are no bells" thing last episode. And really, not only does SPN need to keep the existing audience, they need to keep their talent interested.
You might findthis an interesting read. :)
Interesting, terrifying... ;-)
An interesting SPN example of network "input" (back in the Dawn O. days) was Bela Talbot
Ooh, pet peeve! Except for Amelia, she is *so* my least favorite female character on the show. Brrr. Boring and insulting. And whenever Eric said he fans disliked her because we were just a bunch of catty, jealous women, I wanted to kick his ass so bad. On one hand I agree about things being organic - and definitely about the angels in the mytharc. On the other - sometimes it works so well... I know Eileen from Seinfeld was forced on the show in order to add a female character, and IMO she fit in great. My opinion of female characters in SPN before season 8, though, in general, is "just stop trying, it's not working, just write male characters". I do appreciate the many wonderful things people do with those characters in fandom.