Slutwalk Today

[citrus_java]

Slutwalk. Got a ride there with a bunch of feminists, spent it playing I Never, sharing personal stuff, trying to play the raunchiest feminist songs on the ukelele (first time I ever tried to play one, I think), cheesily flirting with each other, talking about the differences between the waves of feminism, and trying to find cheap, vegan, gluten-free food.

You know, like the Winchesters and Jack Kerouac.

Awesome road trip.

It was too cold and too unsafe to wear my I Love Queer Porn shirt, so I was a covered up slut this time. Hugged a lot of people. Said no to a hug I didn't want, which was really hard to do. Heard a heartfelt, touching cover of Barbie Girl, sung on a megaphone cause we had no mic. Got harassed, cause of course, and everyone got pushed around a little by the police, just to make sure we remembered who was in charge.


It's so meaningful to me that this year, with new organizers, the Slutwalks made a point of being (way more) inclusive. The organizers made a point of inviting people from a whole lot of groups to write short pieces about it, from their standpoint . so many women, so many survivors, so many people I wanted to hear from - genderqueer, crip, asexual, immigrant, fat, people of different races and ages, trans, femme, butch, people living in rural areas, prostitutes, people in BDSM, mothers, heterosexual, cisgender, white, male, gay, lesbian, pansexual, polyamorous. And not even "one of each", I think they just included whoever wanted to write or talk, as well as personally asking people to talk. It came out real awesome, and was what made me want to go.

And sure, there's more to be desired. Not everyone could participate, and that is a big deal. But it is so much better than most feminist events I've been to, which are so often only about women from the strongest social groups. I want to set this at the new standard for events.

I'm so hungry to hear about all these people's different experiences, when they're things I am ignorant about, and to hear people actually saying stuff I so desperately need heard, when it's stuff I know too well myself.

Comments

[tabaqui]

Sounds awesome, bb! Glad you got to participate.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

It was :-)
Thank you! *hug*

[stir-of-echoes.livejournal.com]

Sounds Like you had a good time and what a wonderful way to spend it.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you {}

Now that I made my silly joke, I really really want fic about the Winchesters doing that. I can believe if they needed to work with a bunch of feminists, they could. And I can believe Dean might try to play raunchy songs on the ukelele (especially if they stuck in his head, or he was in a particularly good mood, or he smoked something), and Dean cheesily flirting with Sam is a given. They'd play I Never, I want to hear Dean's stories, though it's hard to write such games well in fic. And Even canon gives us the boys talking about personal stuff with strangers. I wonder how they'd take something like "I decided to stop having sex till I figure out a way to feel safe when I do it. I really miss cock". *sigh*.
Anyway, and Sam would absolutely go looking for vegan food with whoever wanted it. Dean would laugh at him, and Sam would make that little face that's a hint of humiliated, a hint o determined, a hint of shamefaced, but do it anyway. As for talking about the differences between the waves of feminism - buh, that's a hard one. A lot of writers seem to think Sam may have learned that in collage. I don't know how likely or unlikely that is. But it's a minefield. If anything, I hope Sam at least learned what's expected from an ally. Poor Sam, he'd have to work for it, while Dean would get to just charm his way through low expectations... :)

[stir-of-echoes.livejournal.com]

Oh, I could see that I really could, I have no problem imaging Dean singing and Sam playing Never he'd definitely choose how to have sex that was safe or you know, where the girl didn't die afterward :)

I can see Sam learning that in college, he puts up with Dean's idea of charm but you see he really doesn't approve a lot or most of the time but yes, it could be tricky but done well I think it would be awesome.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

he'd definitely choose how to have sex that was safe or you know, where the girl didn't die afterward :)

*chortle*
I didn't think of that!

Sam learning that in college -
Yeah, I can see that too. He says some of the right things (not necessarily my cup of feminism, but some cup), like pointing out Dean is mixing up reality and porn. And he says some horrible things, not really realizing it - like someone who took a bunch of courses, but perhaps didn't really understand it too deeply, understand that it was about him and about everyone, not jsut about some women somewhere. I mean - when he tells Dean not to confuse reality with porn, it sounds to me like "behave", rather than "This approach actively oppresses women, and I care about that".

I'm having trouble imagining what would get Sam to choose such courses in the first place, though, I hope it's a more interesting reason than for a girl. I've said it before - I prefer Dean's heart and usually-not-that-harmful remarks to Sam's approach. In my feminist circles I can see Dean getting along with people more easily, and Sam being scrutinized, unless he came with his best careful attentive heartfelt compassion (he has that mode, but doesn't always use it). Cause they're gonna expect him to reexamine his own behavior, approach, privileges etc. And I'm not sure he'd do that for feminism, though I know and lovelovelove the place in him where he honestly does that (why isn't that in more fic? The man's sleeping with his brother FFS! If there ever was a moment to reexamine your core beliefs about society and your own identity...)

Dean... is pretty open minded under the bullshit. Definitely less into the current social order. For all Dean flirts and has sex with random people, it seems like he does see them as people, or at least sees them as more than usable holes. He looks into people's eyes, he submits, there is more there..Perhaps because he has such a strong need for approval. I dont' remember him ever saying anything bad about a woman's body, and though that really doesn't make him a prince, to me it means he doesn't see himself - like so many guys - as if it's his place to judge who's good enough, and so forth. I don't remember his trying to assert himself at the expense of others, or putting people down - except when it's about the job, or it's Sam and it's more complex. Perhaps it's his low self esteem, but low self esteem can also go in the opposite direction and be horrible. For all he hides it, Dean's willingness to be vulnerable, his sensitivity, how much he cares, would win him more points with most feminists I know, than Sam's slight anti-porn awareness :-)
So I can see Sam frustrated, amused, annoyed and so forth, by that.
Though he's catch on in a heartbeat, he wouldn't be the idiot going around trying to impress with lines he doesn't completely even understand, not Sammy. He's too smart and too sensitive for that by far.

it could be tricky but done well I think it would be awesome
Now I just need someone who'd want to write the fic :-)
Hey, I'll even make podfic for it in return!

[stir-of-echoes.livejournal.com]

I'd like to think there was an interesting reason for choosing such a course too I'd love to see someone write about either of the boys struggling with self-identity trying to find something other than a framework of a patriarchal, hyper-masculine culture where they don’t, strictly speaking, fit, especially Dean because I think we’ve seen more of that with Sam. For all Dean is written as being hyper-masculine with his muscle car, love of porn, promiscuity and aversion to chick flick moments, if Sam is often portrayed as the sensitive brother then Dean is the badass but we know that Dean looks in the mirror and hates what he sees and I’d like to see that explored in fiction.

Looks can and we know be deceiving even though Dean is often portrayed as the domineering brother, calling the shots, often calling Sam out for his more sensitive approach Sam is far from subservient to Dean. He ran away, more than once, he rebels every chance he gets and isn’t afraid to stand his ground and often does with Dean and as we saw with his father and for all his portrayed sensitivity I’d say Sam is the colder, more calculating of the two and he certainly isn’t less masculine he just doesn’t feel the need to defend it as much as Dean does because he’s more secure in his masculinity.

Where Dean is concerned about his masculinity being called into question or open to scrutiny I think Sam is more concerned with others seeing him as unrefined. Sam has had a good long look at the world outside of what they’re used to, the road, crappy motel rooms, hustling and fraud to survive he was for a time more upwardly mobile, was a law student with nice friends with good families and more able to fit in with society than Dean and as much as it pains me to say it I think Sam’s admonishment and often,

“Dude, reality, porn.”

Is more about Dean being uncouth, and lacking any sophistication than the fact he’s objectifying or being oppressive as least in the earlier seasons. I think as much as Sam is later portrayed as seeing the road, the crappy motels as more his life than college and normal I still think Sam is more refined than Dean, sees himself as such and hates when Dean shows clear examples of being unsophisticated.

Ack! I’m going off on a tangent when what I meant to say was that I agree with you, I think Dean’s heart speaks more than his actions and would go a long way to being accepted over Sam’s system of values in some circles and that sounds like I’m putting Sam down or saying he’s shallow which I don’t mean to do and I don’t think he’s shallow at all (I love that he had a dream and wasn’t afraid to go after it) it’s just that I think Sam and Dean are different, have had different experiences despite their shared upbringing and that Sam has often showed a more intense desire to fit in and be accepted.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Yesyesyes, everything you said about patriarchy and the boys. I'm writing this huge article about it that I might at some point finish, but not fic :/ The first time I watched Show, I started at season 4. Got to know Dean there. And I was *certain*, coming in, that his macho mannerisms were a shell to placate the network or even fans of past seasons with, which anyone who really knows the show wouldn't take seriously. I was surprised at first, to hear Jensen talking about them like they were actually part of the character, rather than this flimsy shell clumsily thrown over the character. I have since come to love that side of Dean's too, to see it as more integrated, his defenses, his struggle, part of what makes him interesting, but that was my first-watch impression of him.

even though Dean is often portrayed as the domineering brother, calling the shots, often calling Sam out for his more sensitive approach Sam is far from subservient to Dean

Yesyesyes. It's one of my favorite things about Show. Dean is so caring, dependent, can be so gentle, more led by emotion than Sam for sure. He takes care of his family, disregards his own needs... Dean is "a rebel" cause he was raised to be one, he is so the good son. He doesn't enjoy being an actual bad boy, he needs approval, dislikes disharmony or being mad at.

for all his portrayed sensitivity I’d say Sam is the colder, more calculating of the two

*absolutely*
Have you read RivkaT's Captured by the Game or Only Sweeter? I adore her portrayal of Sam there.
But then, so much of fandom goes for Top!Sam in a way that is, ehm, over the top, to me. Misses his sweetness, his dependency on Dean sometimes just to take care of him, the places he looks at his big brother with awe, at the very least as a subject. Not to mention - the place where he might hold back or at least hesitate or consider, cause it's feral and not cultured.
To me, I see all those different sides as part of him, I like a good combination.

and he certainly isn’t less masculine he just doesn’t feel the need to defend it as much as Dean does because he’s more secure in his masculinity.

I agree.
To me, I can make a case for either of them being "the masculine one", and I like that, cause really - they're complex and lovely, and also don't need to be defined by each other's masculinity.

Actually, I think Sam holds himself to pretty strict rules of masculinity, only they aren't the same as Dean's. Sam's are the... man of culture, educated, liberal (sometimes), aware, elitist rules. I don't know how to call them - post-enlightened? Post-gentlemanly? Either way, he is willing to make the calculated decision to put them aside when something is important enough to him, but then so is Dean (only he maybe goes with loyalty and emotion more than calculation at these points). And Sam's aren't challenged as much. I suspect the series challenges Dean's mannerisms, not from a feminist point of view but from the point of view of Sam's sort of masculinity. It's more about class and "who's a better man" than it ever was for us.

Where Dean is concerned about his masculinity being called into question or open to scrutiny I think Sam is more concerned with others seeing him as unrefined.

Yes. Exactly. And I think it's part of not wanting to be like John/his life. I think the MOL, for him, was so meaningful partially because of that. A way to be with Dean and do those important things, that allows something more refined. really, more refined and high class than most anything else allows. Higher class, though less hegemonic, than being a lawyer.
(which, by the way, I hate that came with them becoming more patronizing towards others this season. Way too fitting, @#$%)

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

[did anybody say "tangent"? ;) ]

Sam has had a good long look at the world outside of what they’re used to, the road, crappy motel rooms, hustling and fraud to survive he was for a time more upwardly mobile, was a law student with nice friends with good families and more able to fit in with society than Dean

Exactly. As I see it, Sam has experienced being sort of part of society, and believes he can get that. Dean never could. I think that's a major part of why he won't quit hunting, and is so terrified to lose Sam to collage. It's like losing his only partner in this wild place outside of society (and of urban spaces, by the way, literally and figuratively). Sam could be part of society, in Dean's eyes, but Dean never could, and he'd be left outside, alone, with no purpose to life without Sammy. (You can do this alone - Well, I don't want to) He is so invested in caring for Sam and willing to sacrifice himself for Sam, that he does decide to give him his blessing, but unlike Sam (and I!) thought at first, he doesn't mean to be part of it. To him, sending Sam to be part of society nullifies Dean, it's exactly fitting for him to die for it. That's part of why Sam doing the trials messed with his head so much. And Sam seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and refusing to leave without Dean? *That* is the happy ending I want for them.

Also part of why Dean was comfortable in "pure" purgatory, with Benny. No society there, being normal there was closer to what he was.

more about Dean being uncouth

Exactly! Which makes Dean the more subversive one about this, and makes me fond of him...
though rejecting hegemony by oppressing the stronger disadvantaged groups (that already got partial protection from hegemony, but are still weak and easiest to go after to annoy hegemony, like going after someone's pet) is so cliche and just... can it please be over, done?

I think as much as Sam is later portrayed as seeing the road, the crappy motels as more his life than college and normal I still think Sam is more refined than Dean, sees himself as such and hates when Dean shows clear examples of being unsophisticated.

Oh, absolutely. Always exasperated, othering Dean, clarifying he's not like him. It is, perhaps, very telling, that when Dean was surprisingly nice about being gay (with Aaron and Charlie), Sam's reaction wasn't surprised delight, or even a private smile about Dean growing out of or never being hysterically homophobic. He looked surprised and disturbed.
I enjoy thinking it's cause of his deep unrequited desires, but I suspect it has more to do with it changing the balance - Dean taking Sam's place as the liberal brother, and Sam needing to redefine himself. And perhaps even, if only for a fraction of a second, one of those thoughts that cross your mind unbidden and you don't act on - "someone needs to set boundaries", to be a little homophobic, if Dean's not doing it, perhaps Sam should. Perhaps because Dean was talking about himself ("He was my gay thing"). But it didn't look, idk, jealous, to me. It looked like Sam's first reaction was to try to hold the world in place, the order in it.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

[... :-) ]

and that sounds like I’m putting Sam down

I know... darlin' Sammy, I don't mean to either... but hey, everybody has their issues, to me gettting to know Sam's is part of loving Sam... He's amazing and caring, heartfelt, loyal. When he shows his heart, it's because he choses to, and that is meaningful in itself. And having to learn to be so calculated says a lot about some of the crap he went through. And while he desires to be part of society and protected, he gives that up to be with his loved ones. And he gives up everything - saying yes doesn't only mean "hopefully" spending eternity being tortured, it means being furthest away from hegemony-heaven as possible, (except perhaps people who just don't matter and aren't part of this conversation).

Sam knows how to fake his way into hegemony - say the right things, show the right amount of earnest emotion, hide most everything about himself, even from the woman he wants to marry. It's not really his place, but he's willing to pay that price - not sure he even sees that it's a huge price. Actually, pretty sure he never realized it was a huge price, not ever.
Like he knows his place better than Dean, knows he will never be accepted as himself. Dean's at least emotional about it, Sam doesn't even allow himself that. Unlike Dean, he knows he has great potential and feels he deserves better. But unlike Dean he pushes that down into this thin, occasional sad bitterness. He doesn't talk about it. I believe that's part of the reason Sam deals with all this anger he doesn't want to name.

Out of the two of them, I can absolutely see Sam being the one to stand up to hegemony, society, *everyone*, even Dean himself. I can see him being the one to say "fuck you, I want to fuck my brother and there is nothing wrong with that, or if there is, I'll take it". Even if Dean would leave him.
Dean would have a harder time standing alone, and Dean would be just more more socially embarrassed, being the good boy, after all. Dean needs that smile from the waitress, little bits of fondness from people he doesn't know. Because Dean knows he has nothing and no one, apart from Sam, who's likely to leave, in Dean's head. He doesn't have any options, just charm and desperation. He can't pay the price of being kicked further out of society.
Unless it's for Sammy, which he'd do in a heartbeat. If someone said something cruel, or threatened Sammy, Dean could take a stand, even if it meant losing Sam. To clarify where he stands. Be protective, compassionate.
Pretty possible he wouldn't have said no to Michael had it not meant going against Sam.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

I can see Dean enjoying being surrounded with cheesy-flirters like himself.
-The car is making this weird noise. Does anyone know how to get the motor running, if it breaks down?
- Oh, bb, I know just how to get your motor running
- I hope someone wants to go up on stage after me
- If you want, I can go down
and such horrible horrible cheesiness.
And not that he's need the excuse, but I can see Dean getting into the spirit of things and telling Sam something like that.
Getting that disturbed-amused-exasperated look from Sam, and being pleased with himself cause it was a bigger reaction than he'd thought he'd get. And, of course, winning points all around.

[stir-of-echoes.livejournal.com]

YES!

To all of the above.

Hee!

[nagasasu.livejournal.com]

and trying to find cheap, vegan, gluten-free food.
AHAHAHA YES THIS. I see dietary needs are a feminist thing. XDDD

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

We strive to keep the stereotype alive, bb! ;)
No herbal tea, though (or Cowboy Junkie on the radio...)