Come remix and be remixed!

[citrus_java]

As balder12 pointed out convincingly, this is a fun challenge - basically, over your fic to be remixed, and if you feel like it, remix other participant's fic. Fun, easy, slashy, supernaturally (though other fandoms as well)! Go do it! It's my first time, you're likely to seem very savvy around me.

ETA: This forced me to actually update my master fic list. That is a thing that happened, IRL. Wow.

Comments

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Oh! I was just thinking about that as well :-)
I don't remember how come we started talking, but I wanted to read something by you, so I just chose the single Sam/Dean (also, soon realized there was a possible-ace Cas there, which I was interested in reading)... you got me into Cas/Sam, you know. I've read a story before that I liked, also some Wincestiel, but your fic - it didn't go against my ship, but with it... and it was so unique - in the characterization, and the dynamics of their relationship... poor Sam, I wanted Cas for him, wanted relief for them all- wanted them to be there for each other... and I used to have a thing for, in Harry Potter and such, the two rejected people getting together and having a weird, raw, honest, perhaps eventually happy thing between them. I'm still not over the way it ended, BTW. Still need a fix-it :-(
- and then Still Raining, Still Dreaming - love the way you write Cas, the way you write their relationship.




I'm still sad that Kamikaze Remix shutdown after my first year playing; I actually liked having the story I remixed assigned to me with no room for choice.

Cool! I didn't get that it worked like that, somehow. Did wonder how come you chose that fic to remix, assumed it was the angst ;)

The fic I got probably wasn't the one I'd have picked, but I think that pushed me to write a better and more interesting story. It was strangely freeing.


That is really cool.
And hey, if you ever feel like it, I'll gladly give you a challenge like that. I won't even choose according to my fic agendas, can look for something that simply might be an interesting challenge - if you like, at some point.


Anyway, I spent way too much time shopping in the remix aisle, and I've found something short and fun to do. What about you, any prospects?

That;s great!
I haven't found anything I connect with that way, no. Looked through a lot of fic, let it rest for a few hours, didn't click. Thought about what I might want to look for, instead - I might want to work with some of the really oldschool things, early seasons, maybe even 1-2 type of thing, you know, diners, salt and burn (ew), looking for John maybe, post collage Sam and still macho Dean, perhaps, I think I'd want to work with some tropes from that era, but I can't find any relevant stories.

[balder12.livejournal.com]

I actually do remember vaguely why we were talking. It was over at spn_roundtable, and we were discussing our head canons or something. Anyway, as great as "Choosing My Confessions" is, it's probably not something I'd have chosen to remix, both because of the length and because I'd never written Sam/Cas or Sam/Dean before. Hell, I'd never written Sam before. It was all D/C or gen that focused on Cas or Dean.

Sam/Cas had never even really occurred to me as a pairing, but I shipped it by the time I was done writing. I think it's probably impossible for me to write a story that long and emotional about a pairing and not end up shipping it at least a little. And really, I've come to realize I ship it mostly in the context of that verse. I feel rather sentimental about the idea of those two ultimately ending up together and coming to realize they're happy with what they've got, even though the whole point is they're not 'in love' exactly. Maybe that's what appeals to me.

I've written a couple of other slashy Sassy stories--"Still Raining, Still Dreaming," and one other that's super cracky, fluffy porn--but mostly when I throw those two together they just want to be friends. Although that's a problem with my slash in general. I didn't plan out a reverse bang that involved Sam, Cas, and Kevin all drawing on each other's chests just so it could be gen, but it turned out that way. I can mostly only write sex in established relationship fic. When I try to write first time fic they generally just stand around and angst over unrelated issues.

It's too bad you didn't find anything you connected with--I thought I saw some early season, John-centric stuff, but I can't remember whose it was. Anyway, I had real life obligations and didn't finish my remix in time to post it for the challenge, but I still mean to put it up when I finish it in a couple of days.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Aw, cool! Glad we did! I hardly ever get into conversations there.

When I try to write first time fic they generally just stand around and angst over unrelated issues.

Heehee! I love your writing.

Ahh! You may not have ever written Sam otherwise?! Your Sam is one of my very beloved Sams, and your Sam/Dean is, really - the world needs to have more of that in it . Just fantastic, the way you capture both their voices and the dynamic, and just - yes, please!

And also same for Cas/Sam - I adore the way you write them. I just can't believe you may have never written them otherwise. You know how I feel about Still Raining, Still Dreaming (and if you somehow don;t, that is because I have somehow shown plenty of restraint, and avoided, you know, latching onto your leg and sobbing , or something).

As for them being friends, though - that is also very awesome... personally I often don't care that much whether characters are going to have sex or not, whether the emotions they have for each other are romantic or other sorts of connection.

I mostly want romance and sex when the characters seem to want them, or where that is an important plot point... you know, like in a certain story, not by anyone we know, in which one of the characters was kinda crushingly rejected, and all the misunderstandings stayed unresolved. Or a certain other fic in which someone, not anyone important to us, spent years of his life so passionately in love he could barely function, let alone move on with his life, and NEVER spilled the beans about that. And then he died. And still didn't tell. (jk)



It's too bad you didn't find anything you connected with--I thought I saw some early season, John-centric stuff


That actually sounds so good... oh well. Yeah, I spent a couple of hours, perhaps more, looking at fic, but didn't connet woth anything I just wanted to remix. So I figured I'd try to imagine what I'd want to work with, to make the search easier. Couldn't find what I wanted, just one fic that was problematic for me for other reasons. But I ended up starting to write the sport of fic I'd wanted, just independently. Then I had to stop writing and deal with something else, and perhaps I'll finish it - or perhaps it's another fic I'll hope and intend to finish for ages (or perhaps both!) .

[balder12.livejournal.com]

I'm honestly not sure what would have happened if I hadn't written that remix. In retrospect it was the start of me transitioning away from one group of fandom friends to another, but I'm not sure to what extent that would have happened anyway. I started losing interest in D/C in the second half of S8, and I've never really gotten those shippy feelings back--I think it's partly that I'm angry at Dean in ways that make it hard for me to write him fairly, and partly that I feel like I've lost the thread of Cas in S9. So it seems likely I would have started writing Sam regardless. It might have been a very different version of Sam though--I often feel like my Sam is fan fic of de_nugis's fan fic. I think he comes as much out of her writing as he does out of canon. Whereas I'd written a lot of Cas before I did the remix, and my version of him seems quite different to me from hers.

I sometimes regret I didn't write fan fic back when I really shipped Sam/Dean (essentially the first five seasons). It's hard for me to recover those shippy feelings once they're gone, which is why I've written so little wincest, although I still read it. It's actually kind of remarkable how few stories I've written where Sam and Dean even talk to each other. I find it kind of challenging to get them in the same room. Right now my shippy feelings are entirely focused on Sam/Kevin for reasons I don't fully understand. Some part of my brain seems to have decided that since I don't identify with Cas anymore, I'm going to identify with Kevin instead.

I agree with you that I don't really care whether the relationship between characters is sexual or not. If I read a fic where two people I ship have an intense-but-platonic emotional scene, that can be just as satisfying to me as porn, and maybe more so. That's probably why I love hurt/comfort so much.

It's interesting that looking for a fic to remix gave you insight into what sort of fic you wanted to write yourself. It's cool you got some benefit from participating, even if you didn't end up writing anything for the challenge.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

I think it's partly that I'm angry at Dean in ways that make it hard for me to write him fairly


I get the falling out of... shipping.
So sweet of you as a writer to be aware of this attitude towards Dean, and deciding what to do with it in such a respectful and responsible way...

It might have been a very different version of Sam though--I often feel like my Sam is fan fic of de_nugis's fan fic.

That's such cool distinction, and I've definitely read fic like that, though as a reader who loves both your fics, I don't have the same feelings towards your Sams, I experience them differently, I believe... then again, that's true for fic/canon characters as well.



I sometimes regret I didn't write fan fic back when I really shipped Sam/Dean (essentially the first five seasons)

Ahh!


It's actually kind of remarkable how few stories I've written where Sam and Dean even talk to each other

Sad... I understand, but that's so sad...
:-(




Right now my shippy feelings are entirely focused on Sam/Kevin for reasons I don't fully understand. Some part of my brain seems to have decided that since I don't identify with Cas anymore, I'm going to identify with Kevin instead.

Good thing Kevin's an option, I'm glad you have that.

I agree with you that I don't really care whether the relationship between characters is sexual or not. If I read a fic where two people I ship have an intense-but-platonic emotional scene, that can be just as satisfying to me as porn, and maybe more so.

*nodnodnod*

That's probably why I love hurt/comfort so much.


Interesting. On paper I so should love the non-triggery parts of that genre! And I've loved - like, the fic that changed my mind about slave!fic was some AU in which Jared saves Jensen from a neglectful master and metaphorically cuddles him back to emotional stability. I'd define that as h/c... but for some reason, I don't enjoy most of the fic in that genre that I've tried. Perhaps it's simply the triggeriness.

[balder12.livejournal.com]

So sweet of you as a writer to be aware of this attitude towards Dean, and deciding what to do with it in such a respectful and responsible way...

I don't know how much it's 'responsible' and how much it's just how I write, but I try very hard not to write a character unless I feel emotionally detached enough to look at them at least somewhat objectively. Like, I think Gadreel did some morally terrible things, but I don't feel personally angry at him, so it's still possible for me to write his pov. Ditto Crowley. I've run across writers in fandom who use their fic to play out their grudges and aggrandize their favorite character at the expense of any one else's subjectivity, and there are few things I find more distasteful. If you ever catch me doing that, slap me (in a respectful, verbal way :) )

On paper I so should love the non-triggery parts of that genre! And I've loved - like, the fic that changed my mind about slave!fic was some AU in which Jared saves Jensen from a neglectful master and metaphorically cuddles him back to emotional stability. I'd define that as h/c... but for some reason, I don't enjoy most of the fic in that genre that I've tried. Perhaps it's simply the triggeriness.

I think part of it, too, is that you have to love the hurt as well as the comfort. I like seeing my favorites hurt mentally and physically, even if I can't totally pin down why. If you only enjoy the 'comfort' half of the equation, the genre's probably not going to do it for you.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Maybe "responsible" was not the right word. It just feels - touching, that you 'd care about that.

I try very hard not to write a character unless I feel emotionally detached enough

Hee, interesting! I'm used to thinking about it the other way around, the need to be emotionally attached enough.


I've run across writers in fandom who use their fic to play out their grudges and aggrandize their favorite character at the expense of any one else's subjectivity


Yeah... I've read those. Where it's not the characters finding somebody evil (or such), but the story promoting that or assuming agreement on that, or just depicts someone - och. All the Sam bashing. Spoiled, selfish child who's just using Dean and never does anything for anyone... ugh. I don't mind it as much when it's characters like the monster of the week, or sometimes John or that hunter to tried to kill Sam being used just as an antagonist to move forward the plot - perhaps just because I'm not that attached to them. But some stories are more about taking the time to revel in somebody's horribleness... Less my cup of tea.


If you ever catch me doing that, slap me (in a respectful, verbal way :) )

LOL



I think part of it, too, is that you have to love the hurt as well as the comfort. I like seeing my favorites hurt mentally and physically, even if I can't totally pin down why. If you only enjoy the 'comfort' half of the equation, the genre's probably not going to do it for you.


Huh, I suspect you put your finger on it, spot on, that's probably exactly why.
Might like the comfort-after-hurt, for sure, pining, yeah, and sometimes angst, all sorts of BDSM, sometimes non-con even, but just stark badness of my boys, it's just... ahhhhhh. I NEED them to be OK. Not so much for me. Not sure what the difference is, but I seem to feel it, and other people seem to feel i too...

[balder12.livejournal.com]

I'm used to thinking about it the other way around, the need to be emotionally attached enough.

It's both for me, I think. Before I can write a character's pov I need to find some part of myself that's like them, or that empathizes with them, even if on the surface we're very different people. Gadreel's done some morally terrible things, but I get his loneliness, his desperation, his longing to be understood, and that makes it possible for me to write his pov.

But on the flip side, if I start to have trouble distinguishing a character from me, or from someone who wronged me in real life, then it's time to step away. There's both fic and meta out there that looks a lot like someone inflicting their anger toward a real person on a fictional character, or reliving their trauma through a fictional character, and while that can be fascinating at a psychological level, I think it rarely makes for good art.

Yeah... I've read those. Where it's not the characters finding somebody evil (or such), but the story promoting that or assuming agreement on that, or just depicts someone - och. All the Sam bashing. Spoiled, selfish child who's just using Dean and never does anything for anyone... ugh. I don't mind it as much when it's characters like the monster of the week, or sometimes John or that hunter to tried to kill Sam being used just as an antagonist to move forward the plot - perhaps just because I'm not that attached to them. But some stories are more about taking the time to revel in somebody's horribleness... Less my cup of tea.

It seems different to me if it's a MOTW or someone who was framed as a villain on the show, because then it's just more of a plot device. There's definitely a lot of fic where Sam becomes the big meanie who just doesn't appreciate how much Dean loves him. Lately, though, I've been coming across more of the opposite, where Dean is an abusive asshole and Sam is the woobie without the strength to stand up to him. And look, canon Dean is an asshole right now, and what he did to Sam in 9.01 was genuinely horrific and immoral, and his refusal to acknowledge that is a big part of why I'm angry enough at the character that I can't write him. But some fic reaches the point where it reframes everything Dean's ever done in the least sympathetic light possible, and I feel like that's not fair to Dean or Sam, and maybe more importantly sanding off the nuances of the characters doesn't make for an interesting take on canon.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Makes sense that it'd be both, of course.

but I get his loneliness, his desperation, his longing to be understood


Sweet....
And I get what you're saying about finding something you identify with .

But on the flip side, if I start to have trouble distinguishing a character from me, or from someone who wronged me in real life, then it's time to step away. There's both fic and meta out there that looks a lot like someone inflicting their anger toward a real person on a fictional character, or reliving their trauma through a fictional character, and while that can be fascinating at a psychological level, I think it rarely makes for good art.

I get that. Not sure where I stand on this for myself - I often use issues I have IRL for writing, though I'm still trying to learn to use writing to work through things IRL. It's a codependent relationship, and erotic, though perhaps not psychotic or irrational ;)
I believe it can make my writing better, but it can definitely make it worst in other respects. DK.
I suppose I need both as well .

Lately, though, I've been coming across more of the opposite, where Dean is an abusive asshole and Sam is the woobie without the strength to stand up to him.

Ahh, haven't read those... I'm glad fandom is finally acknowledging that Sam is dependent and very influenced by Dean, but that certainly doesn't make Dean a one-dimensional villain... The main awesomeness of SPN is the amazing, complex characters and their relationship...

And look, canon Dean is an asshole right now, and what he did to Sam in 9.01 was genuinely horrific and immoral, and his refusal to acknowledge that is a big part of why I'm angry enough at the character that I can't write him. But some fic reaches the point where it reframes everything Dean's ever done in the least sympathetic light possible, and I feel like that's not fair to Dean or Sam, and maybe more importantly sanding off the nuances of the characters doesn't make for an interesting take on canon.



Agreed, agreed, agreed.