citrus_java | Characterization and universality in fic and in SPN canon

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Characterization and universality in fic and in SPN canon

I have this rule about writing (not that I always follow it myself) - don't assume the audience likes the characters because you gave them a reason to, two chapters ago. You have to keep giving reasons. This rule doesn't apply, for me, to Dean and Sam. I love them so much, that part is stable. So I need to amend my rule to say - even in season 9, you have to keep characterizing. These days, I really miss Sam and Dean. These days, the characters are less specific, wobbling too much for emotional arcs I really feel I can hang on to. J&J make it float , (especially Jared, which makes me so proud and glad, since Jensen was the one who used to do more of that, and also since Jared has way less to work with).

It's common these days, in more and more sorts of research, to talk about what's considered "normal", "universal", "not worth mentioning, because of course". Like someone being a white straight man. You know the drill. The common approach today (or, at least, around me) is to look at it as something that is specific, too, not universal. Like- being a man is specific, men aren't "general people". And in one way, most research in existence is about men, canonical everything is written mostly bu men and so forth, but in another way, there's not a lot of research about masculinity itself.

It's interesting to me to look at fic that's like that, in SPN, our "usual" fic. Or at least, your usual Sam/Dean or Sam & Dean fic, I don't read enough of the others to know, and I am curious to hear about this in other places in fandom, if you know and feel like saying.

I'd say your garden variety fic is "not season specific", but it takes place around season 3, minus the deal, give or take the angels and Sam's muscles. Motel rooms, following cases from town to town, diners, bringing each other coffee/take out in the morning (have they ever, ever done that in canon before last episode?), they know about possession and demons, if there are angels around, they're not central, nobody is crazy or suicidal or an alcoholic, and they don't know about fic. Dean's likely to hit on random (gorgeous) girls, Bobby's around and walking, The Trickster is around in either persona, Crowley probably isn't.

Even with fic that's less specific than that, it's often easy to tell around what season stories were written, the same way decades have indications in fashion and music. Vibe, characterizations, small things that became non-canon, the description of Sam's body and hair, And, of course, bigger things like each character's mental place, the way the audience is expected to think about their relationship, and how they're likely to act.

It's really interesting to me that "first time", while perhaps more central, is far from being obvious in this sort of fic. It might be cause it makes PWPs easier, but I don't think that's why. Perhaps it's because to many people, they sort of always had a relationship. Perhaps it because it's been so long, we get it, they're together, and as I took to yelling at the screen, watching SPN for the first time - there's only so much UST you can drive your audience crazy with before they gather outside the network offices with farm tools and take Show from you. Which is, of course, the low tech version of writing fic.

It seems like in seasons 8-9, a lot of Dean's characterization is "general" Dean, which is to say - zig-zaging between seasons and states of mind. Yeah, they're all Dean, but what Dean are we getting? Why? Sam, on the other hand, is still suffering from his role as "the everyman", even after everything he went through, and we went through with him.
Dean gets so much characterization, while Sam gets close to nothing official. I love, *love* that fandom took things like him not having specific hobbies, not having/decorating a room and so forth, as characterization, as a thing. And I like that canon finally caught up with that last episode. Either way, the writing of both of them suffers from this generalization, imo.

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I'm not in the SPN fandom, so I can't say much about the rest of the post, but this part is just great in general:

It's common these days, in more and more sorts of research, to talk about what's considered "normal", "universal", "not worth mentioning, because of course". Like someone being a white straight man. You know the drill. The common approach today (or, at least, around me) is to look at it as something that is specific, too, not universal. Like- being a man is specific, men aren't "general people". And in one way, most research in existence is about men, canonical everything is written mostly bu men and so forth, but in another way, there's not a lot of research about masculinity itself.

Aww, yay! Thank you!
(not mine, of course, that's queer studies, race studies, feminism, ability, masculinity, fat etc. studies :) )
I'm really excited about these things, and I never know whether, when I start talking about research and trends in research and so forth, I'm just boring people to tears. So it's really great to hear. Thanks! :-)

You make a good point about a lot of fic happening in the generic "now" that reflects the vibe of canon but doesn't really fit into any particular point. In D/C fic I think that's much more often handled by creating an AU. The question of why there are so many AUs in D/C (I haven't seen a single canon fic posted for DCBB, I swear), and hardly any in S/D is interesting in itself, and I don't really have an answer.

And I agree that Sam gets little "official" characterization. The strongest attempt at that was S4, but then the show got bored with it, and canon Sam has been weirdly passive ever since, even when he's dying for our sins (twice!). I really had no interest in the character when I got into fandom. It was fan fic Sam that I eventually started to love--when I write Sam-centric fic it's always ultimately fan fic of other people's fan fic. Just from watching the show I'd never get most of the characterization that goes into fanon Sam.

Dean has gotten more development over the years, but I'm not sure all the development actually forms a coherent whole anymore (Purgatory cures alcoholism? Why not?), which is why he sometimes seems like he's all over the place. That, and I kind of feel like Jensen's been increasingly phoning it in since S7-it's starting to feel like watching David Duchovny in the later seasons of The X-Files. Maybe they should've given him the possession arc--getting to do something new might perk him up.

Jensen seriously has been phoning it in. Thank you for saying that. Honestly, I suspect that's one of the reasons Jared's been shining. He's generally so attentive to Jensen's needs, so careful to give Jensen space and not take up too much himself. Even the way he makes his body smaller sometimes, and how he's always quick to joke or smile or make himself look silly whenever he might seem threatening. And since Sam was originally the starring role, and Dean could have been just a sidekick, I suspect Jared's always even more aware of keeping things equal between him and Jensen - or slightly at Jensen's favor. So I suspect since Jensen's been less invested in the show, Jared's been able to grab more of the spotlight and show more of his ability.

I get the feeling Jensen is really tired of doing the show. I wrote fic. I didn't dare to finish it. It's depressing. And for all he tries to stick it out, I get the feeling he has a problem with not getting the main arc, for two seasons now (at least. I don't know what to say about seasons 6-7, in s6 both got arcs, I'd say, and season 7... IDK. But Dean got more attention that now). And well - as painful as it is for fans (ok, for me) to look at the show, the boys, the writing, sort of not being this thing we love so much -- it's gotta be hurting Jensen a lot. Which may be the reason he's not bringing his emotions into it like before. He's sensitive... He loves this role so much partially because of Dean's character. Hes' done an outstanding job of developing it and with it, going through all of those amazing things. And now all these disjointed crumbs - and the ratings are up - ugh :-(

~~Season 9, time for a baby.~~

In D/C fic I think that's much more often handled by creating an AU. The question of why there are so many AUs in D/C (I haven't seen a single canon fic posted for DCBB, I swear), and hardly any in S/D is interesting in itself, and I don't really have an answer.

Oh! That is interesting! Are the characters in the AUs a common fanon, or related to the way they are at certain points of the show, or is it different between stories, or something else? For some reason there are very few AUs for Sam/Dean, as you said, and so so many AUs for Jensen/Jared. What's it like for Jensen/Misha? I think I maybe read one or two of those, ever, without other people involved...

Perhaps Sam/Dean is just an older pairing, and the others developed a bit later, in time for the fandom trend of AUs? That doesn't feel like a sufficient explanation :/ I have the feeling if I loved AUs I'd have more answers.

And I agree that Sam gets little "official" characterization. The strongest attempt at that was S4, but then the show got bored with it, and canon Sam has been weirdly passive ever since, even when he's dying for our sins (twice!)

Yeah, Jared gets *so* little to work with. I'm really pleased with what he's been doing with it lately. I do get most of my feeling of Sam from canon ( I believe), but it's not "official" characterization...
OTOH, Dean is more in danger of becoming a caricature, when the writers have things like pie to hit every time without having to develop something new. Very few people love pie that passionately, as such a central part of their identity .

Dean has gotten more development over the years, but I'm not sure all the development actually forms a coherent whole anymore

You're right :-(
Ouch :-(

(Purgatory cures alcoholism? Why not?)

But Jensen said! ;-)
It's in the air. Now that there are taxis, perhaps someone will open a rehab center.

Edited 2013-11-02 16:24 (UTC)

So I suspect since Jensen's been less invested in the show, Jared's been able to grab more of the spotlight and show more of his ability.

I also think that Jared has just become a better actor than he was in the first couple of seasons, when he was still incredibly young. That's probably part of the reason Jensen became the character who got the majority of emotional scenes in the early seasons. By S4 Jared had raised his game a lot, but by then the show was kind of tied to the notion that Dean would always be the emotional viewpoint.

And yeah, it's got to be exhausting for any actor to play the same character for 9 years. I don't know much about the Jared and Jensen, but I can imagine it might be hard to be a certain age and feel like the chances you're ever going to get your big break are slim, especially as the quality of the show you're on is in decline.

Oh! That is interesting! Are the characters in the AUs a common fanon, or related to the way they are at certain points of the show, or is it different between stories, or something else? For some reason there are very few AUs for Sam/Dean, as you said, and so so many AUs for Jensen/Jared. What's it like for Jensen/Misha? I think I maybe read one or two of those, ever, without other people involved...

Dean/Cas AUs are almost entirely indistinguishable from Jensen/Jared AUs, to the extent that you could take a Dean/Cas AU fic, find and replace the names for Jensen and Jared, and I doubt you'd know the difference (oddly, Cas would probably be the better fit for Jensen in that scenario because he's more often the woobie, although there's some variation). They're mostly just original fiction with the characters' faces pasted on. Which is another reason I've lost some of my enthusiasm for Dean/Cas--in spite of the massive amount of fic written, very little of it is the kind of fic I want to read.

I think the lack of AUs may very well be in part that the Sam/Dean contingent of fandom is older and mostly on LJ, where wacky AUs never became quite as popular. I also think in part that canon Cas is hard to write, and so instead of trying writers create a scenario where they don't have to. AU Dean is far more often recognizable as Dean than AU Cas is recognizable as Cas. In the Jared/Jensen case there are probably a lot of people uncomfortable portraying real people cheating on their real wives. If you make Jared and Jensen into Medieval knights you avoid the squickiness.

Ugh, I don't do well with OOC AUs (mostly). Spot-on in character AUs could work...
I want to get why.
It' s odd to me that Cas isn't that characterized in AUs! He's even more specific than Dean, on the show! Writing Cas like you do is hard, cause you write him magnificently. But writing a recognizable Cas? Overly literal, long looks, personal space perhaps, that combination of experiencing needs/emotions and talking about it in a way that's not as aware of social conventions - should work. Should probably be recognizable as Cas just from that innocent overly literal thing he does, wouldn't you say?

Ooh, this was a really interesting read! ...Not that I have anything interesting to add to it, though. /o/

Thanks a lot! And thank you for saying so!

I think the big problem that since s8, the spn writers seem to have lost interest in Dean and his feelings, so Jensen had less to work with, making Dean only matter in response to caring for Sam, which has made me lose any interest in Sam's feelings whatsoever.

I agree that the show is more focused on Sam at the moment, and it's about time, though they could have done it way better, and I wish they'd still focus on Dean, too. There is not reason not to. Don't see why that'd cause you to lose interest in Sam's feelings, but I guess to each their own.

The problem is that Sam has always had the focus of the writers. He's gotten all the storylines, everything's been always about Sam's story. Whenever Dean got a storyline, it inevitably ended up being about Sam, but at least we had Dean's feelings. Now they've dropped even that. It's as if Dean no longer exists outside of Sam, and after the way they had Sam behaving like an asshole to Dean in s8 I just have no interest in Sam, not anymore.

As I see it, the show has been mostly about Dean for most of its run. Dean's feelings, the way Dean handles things. Dean's been the heart of the show, even when the plots were about Sam. And don't get me wrong, I adore Dean (not choosing a favorite, nope), but that really hurt the show, IMO. Sam got very little characterization, very little agency, even. Dean's the one who saves Sam, Dean's the one who kills the big bads, dean's the one who worries, who comes up with ideas, the one minor characters talk to etc. It's so often all about Dean. The show has been cruel to Sam. But again, YMMV.

Popping in here to say that I agree with both you and

liliaeth in a way. I find that a lot of the times, things and plot arcs happen to/revolve around Sam, but we almost always see Dean's POV, which makes it seem more like "his" show. I think one of the ways the show is starting to show its age is that they don't bother to switch it up and shown us Dean's actions from Sam's POV. All the seasons start to follow a very predictable pattern when the dynamic between the two leads doesn't change.

And to add to

liliaeth's point about Dean "no longer exist[ing[ outside of Sam", I would argue that Dean has always revolved around Sam (and Sam with Dean, and that codependency is why I love their relationship so!). The disappointing part for me this season is that we're not actually seeing much of Sam, either. Instead we're seeing Dean interacting more and more with Ezekiel, a completely new character. Add to that the fact that Ezekiel is pretty flat emotionally, like most other angels, and that Jensen is phoning it in, like I see someone mentioned above, and things just get downright boring :|

Edited 2013-11-04 05:14 (UTC)

they don't bother to switch it up and shown us Dean's actions from Sam's POV.

I agree, you're (sadly) so right.
I miss that so much! Sam's POV has such a different flavor to it! I miss him...
And Dean's POV is becoming wooden, somehow, perhaps from overuse. We get it, everybody they meet loved Dean, and Dean's a closeted geek. The reason we were excited about that was that it was discovering something new about Dean (well, mostly). Saying it again every episode will not get you the same reaction, ok? : /

I would argue that Dean has always revolved around Sam (and Sam with Dean, and that codependency is why I love their relationship so!). The disappointing part for me this season is that we're not actually seeing much of Sam, either. Instead we're seeing Dean interacting more and more with Ezekiel, a completely new character. Add to that the fact that Ezekiel is pretty flat emotionally, like most other angels, and that Jensen is phoning it in, like I see someone mentioned above, and things just get downright boring :|

I agree :(
To me, it's more complicated than that, but I agree on all of your points.
Somehow we're seeing less of both of them, fewer scenes but also fewer broments and less indications of who they are. If we know all there is to know about them, and now we don't even get to see it anymore cause we already know about it so why show us - what are we doing there, and why? :-(

And Dean's POV is becoming wooden, somehow, perhaps from overuse. We get it, everybody they meet loved Dean, and Dean's a closeted geek
Yessssss. The show has gotten so formulaic. I know a lot of people disliked S1/2 because of the MOTW format, and felt that it was too formulaic, but I actually LOVED those because despite being formulaic, the earlier episodes were able to tie in the MOTW story with the brother's story arc. In contrast, the MOTW episodes in recent seasons have been almost ALL filler (which is a big pet peeve of mine for the obvious reasons, but also because then it leaves plot-heavy episodes with too much to do, and throws the pacing all off. Grrrr).

Somehow we're seeing less of both of them, fewer scenes but also fewer broments and less indications of who they are
LOL yeah, well part of that is that it seems like J2 only work like 3 days a week now. Which is good for them, but I wish the writers would be able to write the scenes they DO have in a more meaningful way.

And I'm going to friend you now because it seems like you have an interesting viewpoint on the show :)

I actually LOVED those because despite being formulaic, the earlier episodes were able to tie in the MOTW story with the brother's story arc

Yeah, exactly, i wouldn't call that exactly formalistic! It is, in the sense that there's a structure beign reused, but not in the sense that it is done thoughtlessly or without depth!

In contrast, the MOTW episodes in recent seasons have been almost ALL filler (which is a big pet peeve of mine for the obvious reasons, but also because then it leaves plot-heavy episodes with too much to do, and throws the pacing all off. Grrrr)

Yessss :-(

part of that is that it seems like J2 only work like 3 days a week now

Oh, wow, I didn't know that! Good for them, perhaps. At least they hopefully get to ~~spend some more time with their families~~ ~~have wild four-way orgies~~ ~~sorry, six-way orgies~~ pursue other projects.

Which is good for them, but I wish the writers would be able to write the scenes they DO have in a more meaningful way.

YES!

And I'm going to friend you now because it seems like you have an interesting viewpoint on the show :)

Aww, thanks for the compliment :)
Friending right back :)

It is, in the sense that there's a structure beign reused, but not in the sense that it is done thoughtlessly or without depth!
Exactly! The more recent seasons, while they might not follow the MOTW "formula" as closely, I think it has become much more predictable in terms of character arcs. Which I find very disappointing :(

Oh, wow, I didn't know that!
Well I live in Van and hear stuff about filming sometimes, and add to that things they've said at cons, Jared tweeting when he travels... and yeah, it seems like on average they only work 4 days a week, if that.

The more recent seasons, while they might not follow the MOTW "formula" as closely, I think it has become much more predictable in terms of character arcs. Which I find very disappointing :(

Yeah, absolutely. I'd really really like a clear feelings/relationships/character development arc going on, at least one. Isn't that what most ans watch for? Sure is a major part of what i watch for.

Well I live in Van and hear stuff about filming sometimes

Aww, cool :)

I'd really really like a clear feelings/relationships/character development arc going on, at least one. Isn't that what most ans watch for?

That's what I watch for too! It seems like there are a lot of people that don't though, and I don't just mean SPN. I've seen many people who get into a show because they follow their favourite fic authors or something, and become super-disappointed when the show is nothing at all what they expected LOL.

I actually really love talking about... IDK what the term is, but fandom-meta? Like, analyzing trends in fandom and stuff like that. I find it all so fascinating. Although I rarely post that stuff publicly because it's obviously very biased from my POV an generalizing.

I actually really love talking about... IDK what the term is, but fandom-meta? Like, analyzing trends in fandom and stuff like that. I find it all so fascinating .

ME TOO!

Although I rarely post that stuff publicly because it's obviously very biased from my POV an generalizing.

Oh, you should! One person's POV is a lot! And that's where a discussion can start, too...

Ehhhh IDK... I can get very ranty when I am in a meta mood, and sometimes say stuff that I probably shouldn't. I'll think about it :)

Very interesting post! From my experience, it seems like 2008/2009 were the "golden days" of SPN fandom (or at least the Wincest and Sam&Dean-centric parts of it). When I look through my old bookmarks, I notice a lot of my favourite writers dropped out of fandom around then. Not to say there aren't great writers now of course! Just that I think there was something about that time period that was so inspiring for Wincest and brother fans, which is why I (and, based on your entry, probably others) tend to revert back to that vaguely-S3-era, and why so many people left afterwards.

Thank you!

Aww, I wish I could experience those seasons with you people now :)

I like the way you describe this! And I get that feeling from fandom too. So much so, that I'm nostalic for stuff I hadn't experienced myself :-)

Show had an excellent premise and plenty of potential, all that charged chemistry and excitement, just jump in the and get on the road, and go ANYWHERE. It'll be good as long as Sam and Dean are there...

Oh when did you get into the show?

And it is a weird feeling, getting into a fandom mid-way. I did that with Stargate Atlantis, and I think it definitely changes how you look at canon and fanon. I totally get what you mean by being "nostalgic for stuff you haven't experienced"!

I got into it between seasons 7-8.

I tried watching a few times from the early seasons, and really really didn't connect to the show. I was suspicious of it in advance, because the trailers were very sexist and the leads were way too good looking, it looked like it was going to be shallow and the sort of "the popular kids now also have super powers". Gave it a chance, several, really, but never found anything deep to make me care. Cause most of the deep, fascinating things about the characters develop in arcs, and without knowing what to look for, the subtext, subtleties and partial declarations can be easy to miss.

I gave the show one last chance and tried jumping forward to the middle of season 4 - chose After School Special cause it sounded like it might have some sort of Buffy vibe to it, the horrors of school - and stayed for another ep, and another... when I was done I looped back to the beginning, and I think perhaps rewatched till I reached that time's canon, early season 8.

I like that the reason I gave SPN another chance was that I had a big crush of Sherlock, and was going crazy with no new episodes. SPN had so so many episodes, no way there wouldn't be enough. And I'd said, at the time, that it was a good rebound show, methadon for Sherlock, not the sort of show I'd fall in love with :)
Weeell :)

It's interesting that you gave it so many chances before getting into it. I don't usually have the patience for that. I usually give a show 3 episodes before I decide whether or not to stick with it.

People kept recing it to me...
I'm picky, so there's never enough stuff I want to watch, and I knew I disliked BtVS when someone tried to get me to like it, and it turned out to be one of my biggest loves in fandom. I didn't want to miss something I might love.

Hey, feel like telling me how you got into SPN?
I love such stories :)

I used to be in Prison Break fandom (I guess dysfunctional brother relationships is a thing for me? *g*) and a lot of the authors I followed started writing SPN. One day I randomly caught an episode on TV--Bad Day At Black Rock--got hooked, and then marathoned it from the start up to the currently airing episodes.

I've had my ups and downs with the show and fandom, and there was a period during S6 where I didn't pay SPN much attention at all (got distracted by Stargate Atlantis), but I'll be sticking with it till the end, for better or worse.

Awww :-)

I guess dysfunctional brother relationships is a thing for me? *g*

Huh. Prison Break just got way more interesting.

I've had my ups and downs with the show and fandom, and there was a period during S6 where I didn't pay SPN much attention at all (got distracted by Stargate Atlantis), but I'll be sticking with it till the end, for better or worse.

Awwwwwwww!

Prison Break S1 was GLORIOUS. I highly recommend you give it a shot. S2 was... ok, but I would probably not watch S3+ TBH. The show got very weird after they got out of prison because the show's whole concept just went "bye", and it felt like the writers had no idea where to take it.

I watched part of season 1, and found it nice (though a bit trigery for me ), never got around to watching the rest, and, imprtantly, never got to see much of the brothers' relationship. That's become a pet-fondness of mine since SPN` and I love interesting relationships regardless of of that, anyway. Should try it again, thanks for the rec - and the warning! BTW - have you watched Pretty Little Liars? I loved the first season, then had the feeling the same thing happened - though perhaps not as extremely as finishing the plot in the title!

Oh yeah, I can understand how the show can be triggery for some. Did you make it to the episode 6/7 two-parter? Because I think that's really where it kicks off. And episode 16, while a bit clunky, really gets into the brother's backstory.

And no, I haven't seen PLL. It's too bad that they used up the concept in the first season. For mystery and conspiracy theory type shows, I feel like the writers really need to have a good idea of how to extend the show. Otherwise it becomes a mess :(

I may have stopped after the first half of a two-part episode? They maybe introduced a female doctor character not long before that? Dunno. I should give it another shot, thanks!

As for PLL - (spoiler ahead - warning in case the cut doesn't work in the comments - it started out as what looked like a detective show, with some things the audience was expected to believe, and i was very curious what the solution was gonna be. I *love* detective stories, but can rarely read them cause of the stories around them, which I often experience as trigger or boring. Oh well. Anyway, the solution was along the lines of "Yay, we got another season! There will never be a solution! Bu here's this bit of a thing we found out.

So interesting. I've been a little disconnected with SPN these past couple of years in comparison to early seasons, uneven characterization and weirdly meandering stories have played a role in that. I've been seeing this Dean gets the emotional story and Sam carries the plot argument cropping up ever since S2 (I wrote an embarrassingly long meta arguing the opposite of this for S1-S3, which if I did the same for S4-S9, I'm not sure the same argument would stand), but it seems to be really taking off recently. I have to admit that I've even started to become exasperated with the little screen time Sam's head space gets being that it wouldn't be that hard to do. And it would be nice to see Dean starting to realize that he needs to break this cycle of sacrifice everything for Sam (even, ironically, Sam); that sort of maturity/self-realization would be powerful even if Dean never manged to actually stop behaving in the same way.

And in response to someone's comment about the golden era of SPN being S3 and fans beginning to drop out after that. I agree. I think that those early seasons where the brother relationship and the mytharc were developing was a time when the SPN universe was continually opening up. It was exciting and new and full of possibilities and, thus, creativity was high. The show wasn't locking down and pinning giant chunks of the mytharc in place in preparation for the end of the Kripke ear as started to happen in S4. It's inevitable that the world fan's have created will not jive with canon and people lose their shiny love and get grumpy because it's disappointing when reality doesn't live up to expectation (esp. those in fandom bec. we feel strongly about these characters, this story and get very protective).

I find it interesting that Show's general popularity (ratings) have jumped in the past seasons. I can't help but think, "If you like this, your minds would be blown in back in S1/S2."

IA on the potential for the characters/stories of the early seasons fuelling fandom in a big way. At the start of a show it is pretty much, here are your characters, here is a 'verse, go play. The tired, worn down Sam and Dean now would hardly recognise the people they were back then because so many doors have been closed/different paths taken and there's less places they can possibly go (emotionally or in terms of choices in their lives). It's not really a universe of possibility any more. I kind of think - hope - that maybe the end of the show could give that hope and growth to the characters. e.g. Dean finally realises he doesn't need to/shouldn't sacrafice himself for Sam all the time, and I think that we will get that, but only at the very end.

I kind of think - hope - that maybe the end of the show could give that hope and growth to the characters

I think we all want a satisfying send off, something that ties things up and shows us that there's been emotional growth, that this long journey has been worth it for the characters and worth it as an audience. If things end with Sam and Dean in the same head spaces and holding pattern that they've been in for the last decade, I will stab myself with a spork.

Thank you!
And sorry it took me a while to answer, it's been a busy couple of days.

I've been seeing this Dean gets the emotional story and Sam carries the plot argument cropping up ever since S2 (I wrote an embarrassingly long meta arguing the opposite of this for S1-S3, which if I did the same for S4-S9, I'm not sure the same argument would stand)

That sounds really interesting!

I have to admit that I've even started to become exasperated with the little screen time Sam's head space gets being that it wouldn't be that hard to do.

YES.

And it would be nice to see Dean starting to realize that he needs to break this cycle of sacrifice everything for Sam (even, ironically, Sam); that sort of maturity/self-realization would be powerful even if Dean never manged to actually stop behaving in the same way.

I believe he has some inkling - or perhaps way more - about that, but yeah, there is definitely more to go.

I like you thought about him knowing but not changing his behavior a lot.

I'd like him to realize how much he influences Sam, and how much Sam is starving for his approval, makes his life around Dean and so forth. Even if only so he can be glad Sam cares that much about him, or even less - just so he knows. Even when Sam said it to him clearly, Dean still didn't get it.

I wish Show would just choose one (or more, but for real) of those emotional arcs and follow it in every episode, even in just a tiny little way. Preferably at least one for each boy.

It's inevitable that the world fan's have created will not jive with canon and people lose their shiny love and get grumpy because it's disappointing when reality doesn't live up to expectation (esp. those in fandom bec. we feel strongly about these characters, this story and get very protective).

<3
Oh, fandom, i love you so. And yeah, I agree that there was a huge shift in vibe and in a lot of other stuff in seasoon 4. makes sense that people would be disappointed. The show is also theirs, especially since in SPN the fans played such a huge part in keeping it going, from what I understand.

I find it interesting that Show's general popularity (ratings) have jumped in the past seasons. I can't help but think, "If you like this, your minds would be blown in back in S1/S2."

I'm a late joiner myself, only been around for over a year. Perhaps it's just about more people discovering the show than getting disappointed and leaving.

Interesting thoughts. IA, although I'm still hoping (however much it probably won't happen) that show will devote more time giving them both clearer emotional arcs. I'd be nice to get some really emotional character heavy eps like WIAWNSB, On the Head of a Pin and something for Sam, not that I can think of a similar example for Sam right now.

I very much agree. I'd love for that to happen, want those episodes, miss such episodes on the show so much.

As for Sam - Dean does get more of those, by far. (and if Show's having trouble figuing out where they can develop the characters further - Sam, please! They've done a bit of that, mostly in Sacrifice, but I'd very much like more )

Sam, please! They've done a bit of that, mostly in Sacrifice, but I'd very much like more

Yesssssssssss. I was SO happy with Sacrifice. The ending convo between the brothers felt like it was a long time coming, and when I heard it it felt like a cloud I didn't even know was hanging over me had cleared. I was hoping they were finally going to take Sam's character development somewhere new. But then 9.01 came and they completely side-stepped the issue by having Sam in a coma :(

Yes, yes!...
And Jared!

ETA: And jared!!!

Edited 2013-11-08 22:00 (UTC)

That scene gives me the shivers EVERY TIME <333333

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Characterization and universality in fic and in SPN canon

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