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citrus_javaSisters:
Heh, sister and I got asked today how long we'd been together (they had to ask me three times till I understood what they were saying, LOL). Which reminded me - I'd forgotten we used to get that question a lot a couple of years back. puts all those Winchester scenes in a different perspective. Though I insist that choosing to include them, and so many of them, in a text, means a whole lot :)
Lizards:
Every night, for the past couple of nights, and I suspect before that too, two small lizards meet at a certain spot near the ceiling and chat, making small noises that first drew my attention to them. That is so cute.
Pretties!
Oh, look at all the pretties![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
stir_of_echoes made!
It's interesting to me that Dean was the one directed to be more dominant, and Sam the one submitting, here, unlike in later seasons. In almost all of Dean's love/sex scenes in later seasons - and from what I've seen, almost all of Jensen's - stands there and experiences, gets kissed, gets touched, and reacts so beautifully I just- OK, back on track, me.I notice that in a lot of older fics Dean is considered "the obvious top". Did that change after that Sam/Ruby scene? Or unrelated?
I'm generally not a fan of the top/bottom discussion, I don't like that it links so many characteristics and relationship elements to a preference of position. Especially not when it's also linked to "being the girl", which bothers me from every one of my genders, and as a trans person too. ot to mention, having to define yourself according to your partner/force your partner to define themselves a way they don't like to keep your identity.
That said, when I disconnect it from the stereotypes and think about it as play, I like the role playing around it, like the negotiations it sometimes comes with, like the identity issues it brings up (and even more when they're Sam's, cause that's rarer), and most of all love having a variety of depictions. Since it's linked to so many things, it's lovely to be able to see the different sides of the boys in different stories, or even better - in the same stories. And it's awesome there there is so much fic in which there is definitely no clear top/bottom. I just love that there are many options, that are all considered in character.
Heh, sister and I got asked today how long we'd been together (they had to ask me three times till I understood what they were saying, LOL). Which reminded me - I'd forgotten we used to get that question a lot a couple of years back. puts all those Winchester scenes in a different perspective. Though I insist that choosing to include them, and so many of them, in a text, means a whole lot :)
Lizards:
Every night, for the past couple of nights, and I suspect before that too, two small lizards meet at a certain spot near the ceiling and chat, making small noises that first drew my attention to them. That is so cute.
Pretties!
Oh, look at all the pretties
stir_of_echoes made!It's interesting to me that Dean was the one directed to be more dominant, and Sam the one submitting, here, unlike in later seasons. In almost all of Dean's love/sex scenes in later seasons - and from what I've seen, almost all of Jensen's - stands there and experiences, gets kissed, gets touched, and reacts so beautifully I just- OK, back on track, me.I notice that in a lot of older fics Dean is considered "the obvious top". Did that change after that Sam/Ruby scene? Or unrelated?
I'm generally not a fan of the top/bottom discussion, I don't like that it links so many characteristics and relationship elements to a preference of position. Especially not when it's also linked to "being the girl", which bothers me from every one of my genders, and as a trans person too. ot to mention, having to define yourself according to your partner/force your partner to define themselves a way they don't like to keep your identity.
That said, when I disconnect it from the stereotypes and think about it as play, I like the role playing around it, like the negotiations it sometimes comes with, like the identity issues it brings up (and even more when they're Sam's, cause that's rarer), and most of all love having a variety of depictions. Since it's linked to so many things, it's lovely to be able to see the different sides of the boys in different stories, or even better - in the same stories. And it's awesome there there is so much fic in which there is definitely no clear top/bottom. I just love that there are many options, that are all considered in character.
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no subject
Date: 2013-07-24 03:28 pm (UTC)I always thought it was very cool that either deliberately or through personal preference, Dean's sex scenes are really a lot more like 'love' scenes - if he has the remotest of feelings for his partner, it's all very slow and touchy and almost worshipful with ,yes, Dean on the 'bottom' quite a bit. It's cool to see a guy on tv having no issues with letting the woman be in control.
And Sam's sex scenes - he is *so* aggressive. Whether it's all the bitey stuff with Madison or the physically picking a woman up and manipulating her body when he was soulless, he's *very* 'on top'. And yet, of course, out of bed, the roles are often reversed and Sam is the one shown to more often be sensitive and gentle to witnesses and such. Makes for some awesome dynamics and speculation.
I, too, dislike all the baggage that comes from the top/bottom junk, and usually my characters just switch off whenever the mood strikes them. Sometimes one *does* prefer it a certain way, and that's fine, but it's about them as a whole person and never 'This is Joe Smith, a Top!'.
no subject
Date: 2013-07-26 10:09 am (UTC)I'm pretty sure they're geckos. And yesterday I didn't see them, but I met a tiny tiny one, smaller than my pinkey, outside! :D
if he has the remotest of feelings for his partner, it's all very slow and touchy and almost worshipful with ,yes, Dean on the 'bottom' quite a bit
Me too! How do you not fall in love with a character like that?! <3
I'm a big fan of intimacy and caring in relationships in general, one night stands included. I believe it very often carried meaning, some meaning, definitely for Dean. Any anyhow, even if a connection is short, why do it without why not be caring about the person...
I believe it's Jensen, since he's like that in most roles I've seen him play, and it fits beautifully with the way he does things like lean into Mary's touch, and just all his sensuality. Jensen/Dean experiences more than he does. He takes in and lets it show, he reacts. I think it's Jensen's method of acting, too. If someone says something hurtful, if someone pats him on the shoulder - he takes it in, and that pushes out reactions. Lovely.
It's cool to see a guy on tv having no issues with letting the woman be in control.
Yeah, perhaps the greatest thing about Show is that they allow men, action heroes no less, to be weak, to cry, to be topped, to be broken from things done to them for a long while etc...
And Sam's sex scenes - he is *so* aggressive. Whether it's all the bitey stuff with Madison or the physically picking a woman up and manipulating her body when he was soulless, he's *very* 'on top'. And yet, of course, out of bed, the roles are often reversed and Sam is the one shown to more often be sensitive and gentle to witnesses and such. Makes for some awesome dynamics and speculation.
That's awesome too!
I do like those dynamics too. Sam is glorious, and especially early Sam topping can be great.
I, too, dislike all the baggage that comes from the top/bottom junk, and usually my characters just switch off whenever the mood strikes them. Sometimes one *does* prefer it a certain way, and that's fine, but it's about them as a whole person and never 'This is Joe Smith, a Top!'.
Cool!
I feel like I unintentionally ended up dissing this interpretation or dynamics, which I certainly didn't mean to do. Top Sam can be gorgeous and complex, same as bottom Dean. I just meant I didn't like the way people assume these things without consideration, and connect them to all those other issues... like if Dean's a bottom, he's always a bottom, and girly, and smaller, and plays on Sam jealousy to be pushed around without discussion of safety... all of those things can be awesome in some contexts, and some stories that include them all without discussion are fantastic. But I have a problem (which is my problem) with the way it is often automatically connected, the way it's often written as commonly accepted fanon without consideration.
no subject
Date: 2013-07-28 01:42 pm (UTC)I haven't seen a *lot* of other stuff Jensen's done - mostly Dark Angel and a the 'Bloody Valentine' movie. Selected bits of that ...'Devour'? and the kimono dance, heh, of course. If he did love scenes on daytime tv, well... I'll never see those. *snerk*
Oh, no, i know you weren't dumping on whole deal, but i get tired of the 'bottom is weepy/girly' and 'top is tough and rough and manly' crap, too. It's really just...meh. I rarely read a fic that has that kind of cliche embedded in it.
no subject
Date: 2013-07-28 06:10 pm (UTC)Oh, good. Thank you.
Mmm, your icon.
no subject
Date: 2013-07-29 01:50 pm (UTC)Then his first-season 'clone' is in the second season. I love sci-fi and cyberpunk and such so it was all good times for me. :)
no subject
Date: 2013-07-30 02:39 pm (UTC)I watched it a long time ago, and didn't connect to the main character, had trouble following things.
no subject
Date: 2013-07-25 01:36 am (UTC)I don't care who physically tops/bottoms in fic, but it bothers me when it's treated as a characterization rather than a matter of sexual taste. The thinking seems to be: being penetrated = being a girl = being weak, which is messed up at every step. Plus, fandom blurs the lines between bottoming and subbing in a way I find problematic. The vast majority of people who enjoy being penetrated aren't sexually submissive, and not all sexual submissives enjoy penetration, but in fandom "bottom" is often assumed to encompass both. I love fics where sexual roles are negotiated, like you said, and I wish that happened more often. I'm a sucker for fic where people talk about sex in a believable, non "Very Special Episode" kind of way. And it's cool that all the big pairings in SPN fandom have at least some variety in who tops.
On a selfish level, I wish there was more non-penetrative sex where top/bottom isn't an issue. I mean, I enjoy lots of fics with anal, and have written several, but I wish there were more where handjobs/oral/intercrural/whatever was the main course instead of just foreplay.
no subject
Date: 2013-07-26 10:54 am (UTC)Mmmmm, I understand.
And a lot of people associate topping with size and muscularity.
Yeah...
(though topping strong bottoms - OK, no, Domming strong subs - can be so fun!)
I don't care who physically tops/bottoms in fic, but it bothers me when it's treated as a characterization rather than a matter of sexual taste.
Hear, hear. Exactly. Or, if it's a characteristic, it should be considered the fetish/BDSM/kink/whatever that it probably is, and a fact of bottoming/topping... even if it's a way of working out emotional issues between the characters, it's more interesting if not considered an obvious fact.
Uh, I love relationship negotiations in fic.
The thinking seems to be: being penetrated = being a girl = being weak, which is messed up at every step
Thank you! And that sucks for everyone, for people who are and aren't penetrated, or weak, or girls!
Plus, fandom blurs the lines between bottoming and subbing in a way I find problematic
YES! And also between being penetrated, and being passive, or - the one handled, or whatever, even without being submissive. As if you couldn't Dom someone while being penetrated. As if you couldn't sub while being ridden to desperation.
I love fics where sexual roles are negotiated, like you said, and I wish that happened more often. I'm a sucker for fic where people talk about sex in a believable, non "Very Special Episode" kind of way
Yesyesyesyes...
And it's cool that all the big pairings in SPN fandom have at least some variety in who tops
It's so great, I love that. And that there is so much fic in which that just isn't an issue.
Since it's such a huge deal, apparently, I'm sorta waiting for the fic in which after years of UST and angsty crushing on each other, the boys (any SPN boys) reach the expected make out session, but freeze as they realize they both were going for the same position. Somehow, that just drains all the passion and fantasy out of it. "Me? Top/Bottom? Really?" thinks each of them. Sam can see the gray, moist cloud of indifference he feels in his throat settle over Dean's face. He searches for word to - "You wanna-" Dean gestures towards the ancient motel TV. "Yeah, there's a-" Sam clambers for something - "a monster truck-" Dean provides - "Yeah". Dean grabs the cold pizza box, to occupy his hands. "You want some-" - "No, no, no no", Sam clarifies. They settle in to watch, each on their respective bed.
On a selfish level, I wish there was more non-penetrative sex where top/bottom isn't an issue. I mean, I enjoy lots of fics with anal, and have written several, but I wish there were more where handjobs/oral/intercrural/whatever was the main course instead of just foreplay.
I like non-penetrative (and creatively penetrative) too. I find those in Wincest rather often, if you like I'll gladly send them your way sometimes