Dean didn't want to be a hunter till he was 16?

[citrus_java]

Rewatched part of Bloodlust. In it, Dean says he "embraced the life" at 16.

I wonder what Dean was like before the hunt that changed his attitude toward hunting. Did he have doubts but didn't share them? Didn't want to do it but stayed quiet? Did John take him on the hunt that changed his mind because he noticed something?

Perhaps Dean wasn't always the good kid, perhaps he ever said no to John, yelled at him? Perhaps it wasn't just Sammy? Perhaps Sam was too young to be as confrontational and rebellious as later, perhaps he was the good kid for a while.

DEAN
... So. I pick up this crossbow. And I hit that ugly sucker with a silver-tipped arrow right in his heart. Sammy's waiting in the car, and uh, me and my dad take the thing into the woods, burn it to a crisp. I'm sitting there and looking into the fire, and I'm thinking to myself, I'm sixteen years old. Most kids my age are worried about pimples, prom dates. I'm seeing things that they'll never even know. Never even dream of. So right then, I just sort of -

GORDON
Embraced the life?

DEAN
Yeah.

Thanks, Superwiki!

Comments

[nickelmountain.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I think that before Dean was sixteen, most of his identity and time was occupied with parenting Sam. Sixteen is right about the time when Sam would have been more self-sufficient and Dean would have been craving more freedom. As Sam needed Dean less and less, Dean shifted his identity from being like his mother to being like his father. I think part of what makes Dean so interesting to me is the way he integrated both parents into his identity. He actively and at least partly consciously took on both roles and aspects of both personalities.

I think when he was looking into the fire after that hunt, Dean was thinking about the kind of future that was possible for a guy like him, and who he could be once Sam didn't need him all the time anymore. If he couldn't be Mary anymore, all that was left for him was being John.

If Dean ever did yell at John, I'll bet it was about Sam. And while I'm intrigued by the idea of Sam as the good kid and Dean as the rebel (you're right, there should be fic!), I have a really hard time seeing Sam as anything but a snotty kid. But maybe my mind has just been poisoned by the fandom. Sam is ALWAYS portrayed as kind of a snot. :/

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.
Oh, lovely. Lovely. And sad.
You know this is fic, right? <3

As for Sam being that snot - this isn't against you, it's really not, I'm just emotional about this thing - och, I wanna kick fandom's ass. I hate that this (imo) insensitive interpretation became so fanon. Meh. As if loving Dean - Dean being wonderful and giving - requires Sam to be like that. Sam does so incredibly much for Dean, gives so much thought and devotion to him, such sensitivity and attention. And yes, sacrifices a lot for Dean, though I hate that this fandom considers that a measure of love or devotion. The things he's condemned for are unfair, IMO. Being six and complaining about his food, unlike every kid pretty much, unlike Dean for sure? Trying to get out of a harmful family situation, harmful for them all, by independently managing to find a different place for himself? Not managing to save Dean though he was willing to spend eternity in hell for him? Being devastated enough by losing Dean that he fell apart and got into a bad relationship, an addiction to something he didn't even know was addictive in advance? It's not fair, judging Sam because Show uses Sam to highlight Dean's sacrifice and heroism. For all I love Dean, and I really, really love Dean, Dean doesn't allow Sam a lot of subjectivity (things got a bit more complicated in season 8). That comes with a certain amount of dependance, or however you want to call it. < / soapbox > :-)

[nickelmountain.livejournal.com]

I agree that the fandom isn't particularly fair to Sam. And yeah, equating sacrifice with love really bothers me, too.

I guess when I think of kid!Sam being snotty, I think of how he was portrayed by writers like candle_beck, pdragon76, big_pink, and roque_clasique. In their stories, kid!Sam is the bad kid BECAUSE he's the good kid. He cares about school, he's considerate and conscientious (though not always wrt John), and he cares about Dean. In all the ways that normally matter, he's doing everything right. But that's not what John values, or what John feels he has the ability to reward. What makes him the 'snotty' kid is that he's exactly as stubborn as John, and just as resistant to John's POV as John is to his. So he can be a little sullen sometimes, and a lot sarcastic. Particularly as a teenager. In a lot of those fics, he wants out for himself AND for Dean, but his frustration and the way he butts heads with John often ends up making things worse for himself and for Dean. And when Dean won't go with him, he doesn't have much choice about leaving him behind. Like you said, just because he couldn't save Dean then didn't mean he didn't love him.

I guess I don't see Sam being snotty with John as a condemnation of him. It's hard when Dean is the one who ends up between them, but a lot of the time from Sam's perspective he's rebelling for them both.

I wonder if Dean ever thought that if he were more like John, and Sam still loved him, then maybe Sam might find a way to make peace with John by extension. How could Sam still be so angry with John, if so much of what he hated about John was a part of Dean?

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Hm, I was thinking about The One You'll Know By, too :)
He is really annoying there, a bit unfair, but it's just so so good (and such and fantastic reading) that I accept it. Though I do think it takes from both his and Dean's characterization.

As for Sam being stubborn and fighting with John - how is that a bad thing? He tries to stand up to John, he tries to carve out a little space to breathe in - those are important and good. Unpleasant, but important. And yes, Dean puts himself in the middle and it's sad and can break my heart., But what is Sam supposed to do about it? Stop trying to assert himself, become a hunter, let John just have his way for their entire lives?

(BTW, that could be an interesting fic, if Sam didn't go to Stanford. Wonder how John would deal with Sam's visions and OMG, would he kill Sam?)

As for perhaps being less stubborn and trying to be more understanding towards John - It's not Sam's responsibility, there. Not sure Sam can, even if it'd work with John rather than just being erased for not being forceful enough. Perhaps in order to be the bigger person, you need "to have yourself", for it to be good for you too rather than just giving up?

I wonder if Dean ever thought that if he were more like John, and Sam still loved him, then maybe Sam might find a way to make peace with John by extension. How could Sam still be so angry with John, if so much of what he hated about John was a part of Dean?

This is very interesting. Do you think Dean would have wanted to be more like John, but held back to be loved by Sam? Or - ?

I imagine John would hate for Dean to be like him way more than Sam would... or not? Do you think John would grow to be proud of it? But then, he didn't with the ways Sam was like him... Or are you talking about things like hunting and not things like being dominant?

[nickelmountain.livejournal.com]

I don't see Sam standing up to John as a bad thing at all! And I guess I don't see little-kid Sam being annoying from time to time in fic as a criticism of Sam, either. Little kids are pretty annoying, and little brothers are ESPECIALLY annoying. It's just a fact of life. (I tend to see a lot of kid!Sam's snottiness/fussiness/annoyingness as just classic younger sibling. I personally relate to it a lot. I annoyed the crap out of my older sister when we were kids, and that can't have been much fun for my parents, either. :P) But if that's not something you enjoy reading in fic, I completely get that, too.

When I think of the pre-series fic I love, so much of it is about the tension that had to have existed between the three of them. By all normal measures, Sam was a really good kid. But his goals - doing well in school, not having to stitch up his dad and brother on a regular basis, and creating some space for himself to breathe - put him at odds with John's goals. Automatic conflict. Then you factor in Dean's goals, which I think can be boiled down to wanting to take care of his family. He loved Sam and wanted him to thrive, but he also idolized his father. He saw both sides, and was sort of forced into the role of peacemaker. I think when Sam did give in to John, he did it for Dean, not for John.

The fics I don't care for are the ones that paint John as some horrible monster because of that. John was a super flawed parent, but I imagine him as a man who loved both of his sons very deeply and just didn't really have the best tools to work with as a parent. pdragon76's "The Long Narrow Rope" captures my view of John pretty perfectly. I guess Sam could be seen as a little annoying in that one, too, but I find it an entirely sympathetic sort of annoying. His dad isn't listening to him when he really should be, he and Dean are doing some pretty normal brothers-trapped-in-a-car squabbling, and he gets sick on top of everything. Totally not his fault. Sam irritates John because John doesn't know how to relate to him, and while Dean appears to be irritated by Sam in a couple of places, he also snaps seamlessly into concerned, showing that his irritation is more of a front of big-brotherness than a reflection of genuine feeling. John is also pretty severely irritated by Dean in that fic, too, and I don't think it comes off as a condemnation of Dean, either.

When that tension is presented in fics like The Long Narrow Rope or big_pink's Dazzleland (have you read that, btw? SO GOOD), I tend not to see it as a condemnation of any of them. I see it as tragic. Their family dynamic is a catch-22, and none of them comes out completely clean. And that's okay.

wrt Dean being like John - I think it was probably pretty clear to John that Dean wanted his approval, and I think he approved of Dean falling in line with him in terms of obedience and hunting because he saw it as the best way to keep the family together and safe, but I think he also knew that Dean loving classic rock and muscle cars didn't actually make him a carbon copy of John. Dean was the easier kid for John in a lot of ways, but if he'd actually been more like John in terms of temperament and personality, that wouldn't have been true anymore. So no, I don't think he really wanted Dean to be like him. I think he might have wished Sam was more like Dean, though. Which, yeah, not fair to Sam, either.

I don't think Dean really understood who John was as a person until his mid-to-late 20's, during the run of the show. His hero worship got in the way before that. But I do think he might have seen himself as a bridge between Sam and John. I think this is the calculus he might have done (pardon my made-up notations): [If] Sam loves Dean, [And] John and Dean get along, [And] Dean is like John, [Then] Sam and John should get along.

Oh man, thinking about Winchester family dynamics hurts. It's so hard and so sad. I love it. :P

So, I've talked a lot about my head canon for the Winchesters. What do you think they were like? Accepting that Sam standing up for himself is a good thing, how would you show those conflicts from John and/or Dean's perspective in a way that doesn't feel to you like a criticism or condemnation of Sam?

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I got the impression that Dean always sided with John and was very gung-ho about the hunting lifestyle until he first started having doubts around late season 1/season 2 time

I assumed that Dean saying he fully embraced the life at 16 is referring to the first time that he went on an actual hunt. John generally left Dean behind to look after Sammy when he went on hunts, so that time with the crossbow was when he first ~became~ a hunter so to speak.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Love your icon, love that scene...

It's definitely a fair interpretation, though to me, him explaining why, the whole thing about other people and what they get to do, implies that he chose hunting that day, perhaps was enchanted by it in a new way. Had it been about first getting to be recognized as a hunter, perhaps he would have described something that gave him the feeling he'd earned this status, perhaps some form of approval from john, or managing to save someone. But hey, seems like most people agree with you :)

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

I don't see Sam standing up to John as a bad thing at all!

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that was a problem people had with him.

I agree, kids can be so so annoying. And I'm OK with it in fic, it's just such a partial picture of Sam, imo. I just don't like when characters are written as being (rather than perceived as) only one way, in order to make other characters look better. Except for when it's awesome. And when I'm the one doing it ;-)

Just like you said, re John. Just don't turn him into just one thing...

I personally relate to it a lot. I annoyed the crap out of my older sister when we were kids, and that can't have been much fun for my parents, either

LOL <3


When I think of the pre-series fic I love, so much of it is about the tension that had to have existed between the three of them

I love that too, so much! And I agree with your interpretation of the relationship, and I like fic in which John is complex. He was in a horrible position, losing his whole life like that. I love Candle_Beck's and Roque-Clasique's Johns. And I'm developing a taste for fic about him and the boys, the complex relationship there. And there should be more fic that takes place during the few episodes they were around each other. Which I should rewatch, cause I don't really remember.

The Long Narrow Rope

Sounds really good, thanks for the rec!

I think it was probably pretty clear to John that Dean wanted his approval

I wonder if he realized that means Dean actually, emotionally, needed that approval, and that it meant he had a certain responsibility to address that need. He may have stopped at thinking his side of things, without really realizing how it influenced Dean.

and I think he approved of Dean falling in line with him in terms of obedience and hunting because he saw it as the best way to keep the family together and safe, but I think he also knew that Dean loving classic rock and muscle cars didn't actually make him a carbon copy of John. Dean was the easier kid for John in a lot of ways, but if he'd actually been more like John in terms of temperament and personality, that wouldn't have been true anymore. So no, I don't think he really wanted Dean to be like him. I think he might have wished Sam was more like Dean, though. Which, yeah, not fair to Sam, either.

Agreed.

I don't think Dean really understood who John was as a person until his mid-to-late 20's, during the run of the show. His hero worship got in the way before that. But I do think he might have seen himself as a bridge between Sam and John.


I agree. I loved the way they talked about it around meeting Henry.

I think this is the calculus he might have done (pardon my made-up notations): [If] Sam loves Dean, [And] John and Dean get along, [And] Dean is like John, [Then] Sam and John should get along.

Hee!
I think he felt he needed his family, and never imagined an option to the others getting along, to Sam being there.
Hmm, did he ever choose Sam over John? Or did John just not give him a choice?


Oh man, thinking about Winchester family dynamics hurts. It's so hard and so sad. I love it. :P


Aww. *hugs*

Accepting that Sam standing up for himself is a good thing, how would you show those conflicts from John and/or Dean's perspective in a way that doesn't feel to you like a criticism or condemnation of Sam?

Oh, I pretty much agree with you, and seems like most fic I read is also somewhere along those lines. I suppose as long as I stick to Wincest, there's not likely to be a whole lot of Sam hate. It's stepping out that is sometimes hazardous, but a lot of times it's all right too.

[jacyevans.livejournal.com]

I always interpreted it as until that point, he was somewhat hesitant to be a hunter - his dad went away and left him and his brother alone, probably often came back injured - and he was also wrapped up in taking care of Sam. Whatever happened on this hunt was kind of the "AHA!" moment that made him realize "Hey, maybe this is something good after all."

As an aside, I agree with being annoyed with all the Sam is a snot that fandom produces. I'm currently working on a pre-series fic that is turning into something pretty epic, and getting into Sam's headspace is really, really interesting to me, because it's forcing me to analyze not just his motivations for leaving, but everyone else's for letting him walk out the door.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

That makes a lot of sense.
Your fic sounds like it's gonna be awesome! Curious to find out how you see everyone's motivations.